Jeffery: Okay welcome to the supporters fund ask an angel i’m your host jeffrey potvin and today i’d like to welcome two investors uh to our panel today kusta and peter and very excited about this opportunity because kusta you and i talked probably about two months ago and we went through uh i feel a fantastic segment of me getting to learn about all these great things that you guys are doing so maybe to kick things off acousto you can give us a little quick brief uh background again on yourself and then we’ll jump into uh learning more about peter at the same time.

Kustaa: All right and and uh thanks jeffrey great to be back uh talking with you so my name is gustav altonen from finland been working in it industry for a long time at companies like hp microsoft as we talked about last time and then about 10 years a little bit more than 10 years i’ve been a full-time business angel working with the startup companies and helping them to to grow and develop their businesses and about five years ago we started with peter this um huge mega project and uh kind of a movement around that uh that uh we’ll be talking about today so we’re building the uh helsinki italian tunnel and what we call the fine nest bay area so connecting finland and estonia with a new piece of infrastructure.

Jeffery: Awesome that excites me so much because it’s such a massive massive project i think this should be all over the netflix and tv as a documentary so hopefully you guys are capturing all of this and everything you’re doing uh peter welcome to the show thank you very much for joining us uh why don’t we start off by again learning a little bit more about your background where you’ve come from and then we’re where you are today.

Peter: Yeah yeah so um uh yes i mentioned uh i met that at hp so i always say that i started my working life at the original tech star absolute one that bill and dave started in their garage in palo alto california 1939 before my time always have to mention when we have younger audience as well uh but yeah anyway uh i had the opportunity also to meet with both bill and day when they were still around so they were fantastic entrepreneurs not only did they start uh hp you know so it was bill hewlett they packard so they started hewlett-packard but uh they actually started the whole silicon valley so that’s uh where uh where the silicon valley got started in that uh you know tiny little garage there in palo alto uh california and i think that’s like a great and inspirational story uh because uh again there wasn’t much there uh before like the silicon valley that started there in in the san francisco bay area so you had uh you know a bunch of work shirts and stuff uh and okay it’s a long time ago if you look at it to now but yes i was working at hp uh both in the valley then in finland uh so i’d like uh um was in charge of like some stuff in finland uh that was when like the communications industry and business was opened up uh so uh we got the first like gsm operator got started uh competition was introduced very early here in in finland into our market like ecosystem uh which meant that then kalakanokia took off and a lot of companies a lot of startups around that and i was actually then ended up running something called the hp bazaar which was this kind of program that we created to make it very easy for the startups back then you know all these dot coms to work with hp uh supplying you know like these cool new services to mobile operators uh and hp was in the collecting the role of supplying the boring infrastructure to power all of these cool new services and hp also cannot manage to miss the internet and dot com wave so uh this bazaar thing was something that we put in place to connect then capture the next wave and and we did so we worked with about 600 startups uh around the world we also expanded this thing from helsinki to singapore tokyo cupertino london amsterdam milan beijing shanghai bangalore like all over the place so it’s like co-working before co-working and like a uh corporate like incubation exploration program but always just ask that okay so what is this bazaar and then i said that you know like uh and they are it’s like a partner program developer program incubator accelerator like what is it and i said it’s all of that and more that’s why we decided to call it the hp bazaar so it’s also the way i always enjoy doing branding and while i was there at uh hp and doing the bazaar thing then organized the game making competition in 2003 and then nicholas kim magnarno who were students at all top university uh some other great universities over here uh they took part in this game making competition uh so the objective was to make the best uh possible mobile multiplayer game so that was the time when nokia on our great finish company they were still in the business making phones they had come out with their first smartphones famous seven six fifty three six fifty some people might remember those and we wanted to create games for these uh smartphones and the hp interest was to provide the infrastructure so again the boring infrastructure to power these amazing games and nicholas uh steve mayardo they won the competition uh they came to me and said okay peter we won this competition what should we do i said okay you should do and you should always do what you love to do so you guys love making games so why don’t you start a company to do what you love they started rovio and then uh over the following six years they made 51 games and uh 11th of december 2009 52nd game angry birds uh came out so then i spent many years uh as the mighty eagle of rovio uh so uh taking that brand uh everywhere and uh also actually before uh uh becoming the mighty eagle latrobia in 2008 uh started slush which is now the biggest and best startup event on the planet uh so that’s something that uh also kinda like uh uh did together with a few friends back in 2008 so uh before joining rovio like full time but yeah anyways i’ve always been an entrepreneur always worked with uh the startup ecosystem and right now uh what we’re doing together with gusta and the people over here we’re building the finest uh bay area and uh that is actually um now the leading location if you look at you know the number of unicorns per capita number of startups the venture funds invested uh so uh finland actually was the uh biggest recipient of venture capital in in europe per capita like if you look at last year okay europe low bar so nothing to write home about but uh we’re doing okay and we actually have a higher number of uh unicorns per capita than you know silicon valley china you name it uh so this is the leading leading region uh when it comes to uh creating success uh if you take unicorns per capita as uh symmetric and uh with the finest bay area uh we intend to accelerate that so you know have uh all these uh interesting areas around this little body of water that you can see here in the background so you know helsinki tower in stockholm uh saint petersburg of course also like interesting uh place if you look at the universities and the talent so uh yeah right now we’re basically creating a bit of gravity here in in the finest bay area so that’s what we’re up to.

Jeffery: I love it and and it’s a very complete background i think the both of you have done some amazing things in the startup world in the investment world i just have to ask on the angry birds side is it the most successful business that has run through finland is it huge.
Peter: Nah not even not even by a long shot so i mean rovio uh yeah we had the ipo and uh hit uh billion in valuation so it’s one of the unicorns but uh i mean we have in the games industry alone i mean they’re super sale uh they uh uh basically were the first dickacorn so that was like a 10 billion valuation so you kind of guys that i also met during my hp bazaar times so they are like uh got their first company started about the same time as rovio got started actually a few years before and there was suma which became digital chocolate and then okay uh ilka launched supercell at slush and then yeah the first ticker corn here and also you have small giant games that’s uh they’re uh worth way over a billion i actually zing acquired them about a year ago and we have several of these uh unicorns in the gaming industry and many many more to come and of course here uh you know like uh we have uh uh playtex skype uh wise that is just doing the ipo process now in in london uh they are the one of the most valuable fintech startups uh all of uh europe actually globally uh so that’s out of estonia you have bolt uh which is another unicorn you have walt here in finland that is a unicorn in the making as well pipe drive and so on so we have actually um yeah a lot of companies that have been a lot more successful than rovia but the angry birds if you look at uh things like brand awareness and all of that i think that 93 of the chinese population know the brand 91 percent in india so nine out of 10 people on the planet know the brand so if you take brand awareness and and uh kind of like how fast we got there i think that makes angry birds the fastest growing consumer brand ever so with that metric not too bad but if you look at value creation then many many people have created a lot more value than than we managed to do at rovio but i mean that’s the way it should be and i expect to see a lot uh more and a lot more successful companies coming out of the finest bay area because we have the highest talent density in games and now we’re working on making that show in a lot of other areas take a i take you know the fintech that i mentioned a lot of uh super super exciting companies in the making uh so uh we always have been very good at tech here in in in this part of the world i mean linux mysql is like a big open source uh you know success stories also started here.

Jeffery: Yeah 100 big fan of that as well that’s where i first started hacking away back in the day so i’m a big fan of uh linux as well um well maybe the way we can uh before we jump into the conversation um peter maybe you can give us one thing about you that nobody would know and then Kustaa you can jump in right after that nobody would know.

Peter: That’s actually a tough one yeah i don’t really know what what that would be uh yeah

Kustaa: I think for the international community maybe the the evening walks that you do every night.

Peter: All right yeah yeah yeah so i want one thing yeah that might be one thing that not everybody knows but yeah every every day after a car like uh wrap up i tend to come and do them this uh hour and a half walk where uh when uh you know it’s good uh good time to reflect listen to a few books make a few phone calls and all that and the reason why i walk and don’t run is that you can actually do a lot of things while walking so it’s kind of like uh productive in in many ways but that’s that’s kind of what i do you know like wandering around here in the finest bay area at night so yeah.

Jeffery: I love it kuster how about yourself and you’re gonna have to use something different.

Kustaa: I i forgot already what i shared last time but maybe uh if you just look at my background so uh something that not many people know is that i spend a lot of time during the summer time at my summer house which is in the middle of the woods where i am now so this is a place of relaxation and kind of peace and quiet.

Jeffery: I like it awesome well to the the background and to the walking side i’m a big fan i do the same i walk uh walk or run but most of the time it’s uh it’s a walk but i try to do that every day the same so uh at least 10k a day so that’s my uh my goal that i’ve been working on and i run a lot in the woods so i’m a big fan of uh trekking and all that so you guys are in some great spots so that’s awesome to know.

Peter: We have we have a lot of forests to wander around in here so i think that uh most of finland most of estonia it’s like forest so there’s uh very few people but like a lot of trees so yeah.

Jeffery: I love it i love it so now let’s drive into this amazing project that you guys are working on and maybe because you can share a bit more how you guys first met and then where did this idea come from and then how did you kind of move it through because it’s not every day you’re deciding that i want to go and build a tunnel um it’s not a small tunnel so someone had to come up with this idea and then start driving it forward so Kusta maybe you can share a little bit about how this journey began.

Kustaa: So the the idea of a tunnel connecting finland and estonia the capital regions helsinki and tallinn is it’s not something that we we thought of so it’s something that has been uh in the minds of people uh since uh 1850s or so so we have found some publications that engineering students did in in 1861 or so where they had dreamed of a bridge connecting the two cities the distance is only about 75 80 kilometers so it’s it’s relatively short and uh it kind of goes to show that uh people have been thinking about this because there has been a lot of interaction between the uh two uh countries uh for a long long long time and um uh it it kind of uh has kept on coming uh to the surface uh in in uh media in different discussions every 10 20 years and and i think where it started for us was that peter was attending uh the startup event called latitude 59 in uh in tallinn uh roughly five years ago and uh uh at the dinner table there well peter can tell the story but uh they they came up with the idea that let’s uh let’s not just talk about the tunnel connection but uh let’s make it happen and uh he called me the next day and i said that hey i know what we’re gonna do next and let’s start to work on the tunnel so that’s kind of the short story uh from my perspective maybe peter you can share some of the detail of uh of the dinner events um because that was yeah i think a very good uh beginning.

Peter: Yeah and you could also say i mean we yeah that was like uh 2016 and uh like i was in the process of uh who didn’t come like uh moving on from rovio as well so so i was at latitude 59 which is kind of like the slush or the startup event of like estonia and uh yeah it’s fantastic event and then we had like dinner after the first uh day and uh yeah we had some fins and some estonians there and we’re like uh you know having dinner having a few drinks and then uh i’m just talking about the fact that we are doing a lot uh together and i mean there’s a lot of uh kind of like uh intensity there and then we have a lot of uh travel happening between finland and estonia helsinki and tallinn uh yeah i mean one thing that is not well known is that helsinki is the busiest uh passenger harbor on the planet and obviously helsinki not the biggest city so that’s like uh mainly because there’s a lot of people going back and forth between helsinki and tallinn so uh that’s that’s something that uh you know things about uh things that you might not know but yeah anyway uh so then we’re just gonna like uh talk about the fact that it would be nice to kind of like not have a two-hour but like a bit faster connection so then i decided to go like uh you know stop uh just talking about it and and uh actually making it happen and then the then foreign minister uh mrs collier on from estonia was sitting in the table next to us so figured that okay it’s probably like uh uh good to keep the government’s up to date on our plan so i went over to her and said that uh you know i’m peter and you know like it’s nice to meet you and we actually just decided that we’re going to build a tunnel and then said that okay and then like who exactly and said you know like me and then you see those guys over there at the table uh we decided to make it happen and then she started laughing and uh and i always say that it’s always a good indication uh about you know you getting the ambition right when people laugh when you tell them what you’re about to do and then it’s your job to stop the laughter so now last five years we’ve been trying to stop the laughter and i think that not everybody is laughing uh like anymore and uh like some people even take uh take a serious which is you know like uh always um i don’t know if it’s good good or bad thing but uh yeah i mean we then started looking at like how to get this tunnel uh uh built and started talking to a free to uh uh aliens so some of the great engineering companies that we have here in in finland also turns out that they three guys they’ve been involved in building their save got her tunnel under the alps which is kind of the biggest or longest like railroad tunnel uh like so far and uh yeah then um you know started building the plan the business case and uh and uh yeah nowhere we’re gonna look here and uh and one thing uh many times you know people uh you know then ask ask us and you know like so uh what do you guys know about building tunnels and uh okay maybe not that much and five years ago uh nothing but uh i think that with uh any entrepreneur and like we all been in like many startups and uh of course you don’t always know at the get-go you know like uh what you will need and and uh and what uh what it takes to kinda like make that uh you know next unicorn happen or whatever but i think that also uh what the startup and entrepreneurial experience has thought uh taught us and and and i think that i always said that you uh you know you can learn anything and it’s all about learning by doing and basically we’re bringing this this kind of like startup mentality and this kind of entrepreneurial approach to a big infrastructure project so we’re talking about the 15 billion euro project so it is obviously massive but at the same time a lot of the same kind of like rules apply to building any kind of uh business any kind of startup so it’s it’s actually not that different uh i mean there’s a lot more uh like regulatory dealings so you have uh you know the governments and uh different kind like uh parts of the government that you need to deal with but i would say that it’s it’s not like that that different from uh building anything else.

Kustaa: Yeah and uh it’s about finding the right partners so um um where we are we have been very honest uh to ourselves that we don’t know how to build tunnels we haven’t done that in the past but uh we found uh the best people uh the best engineers and the best companies who can do that and and it’s it’s been great to work with them because they know how to get these things done.

Jeffery: So when you guys are coming up with this plan and you decided to move it in motion there’s obviously going to be a lot of cost planning structure like there’s a lot of things that have to come up at the very beginning so just like any any startup would be you go through that planning stage your mvp probably what is everybody going to approve on this side and i think one thing and uh that i read it was the the distance was 92 kilometers and then there’s a ferry that takes care of this already so it’s not something that’s foreign to the two uh countries and cities that there’s actually something that is moving people across so this is actually just a new bolt-on that’s going to make things faster quicker and more productive so in that early stage planning can we can you share a little bit about how much commerce occurs between the two and is this what allowed for the two um cities to really tie this together to say you know what we could really double down on this um this stuff this will pay for itself this is a great idea let’s move it forward and how did that look and where did that start.

Peter: Yeah yeah so so i think that uh again uh uh uh really view the tunnel as as like a a big detail in in kind of like the bigger scheme of things and and that’s why we talk about uh the finest bay area we talk about talent density and talent attraction like a lot and uh maybe you also can’t you understand a bit of the background and where uh we’re coming from uh so uh in uh in 2007 uh i gave a talk at alto university about uh startups about entrepreneurship to 600 students there and then uh god sharing my entrepreneurial journey and you know a bit of this a bit of that about you know like uh startups and and the experience and then i asked the students that okay how many of you guys are gonna you know start a company or join a startup once you graduate or even before and in 2007 you know we had 600 of our best students only three raised their hand when i asked a question so everybody else wanted to go and work for nokia or you know vert silacone uh the government uh finnair you know one of the big you know corporations that we have here and and of course nothing wrong with that but uh if everybody just wants to go and join a big organization and maintain the status quo we all know that uh the world will not kind of like uh develop too much so uh we had to do something about that and get more young people excited about you know changing the world which basically is what you do when you’re an entrepreneur and when you start a company uh so we started slush together with a few friends in 2008 to change this mindset change this attitude and uh and then we did so we started uh slusher the startup event in november 2008 and we had about 300 people uh join we had the matt marshall who runs like venture beat so we wanted to call like get a bit of a connection back to you know silicon valley and get the message out that hey there’s like amazing stuff happening over here in finland so invited a bunch of founders you know who then later started supercell christos started uh if secure and then chairman of nokia montevideo started mysql we had uh some pokaria line and started a company called sulake of hotel fame and then we had uh ilya laos who started a company called getchar and then was one of the was the first company in lithuania to receive uh investment from excel so one of the you know big guys in in the valley when it comes to vcs and some would say that you know exhale sequoia and those are like the leading guys there but anyway so they came to slash and shared their like entrepreneurial journey and then the whole event was actually built by young people you know volunteering to build that slash event and then slasher over the following few years grew to what it is nowadays you know over 20 000 people from 160 countries coming to helsinki in november and the whole thing being built by 2 600 young people from more than 60 countries who are there because they want to be there they love to be there they’re not there because somebody told them that hey you should go to slush and like make that happen but they’re there because they uh yeah love to be there and uh five years after starting slash went back to all the same talk same question how many will start a company during a startup and uh more than half of the hands went up so we did this like cultural revolution if you will in just five years totally changing the mindset and now you see a lot of that you know again estonia leading the world with the number of unicorns per capita uh we’re done our fair share same thing you look at you know stockholm and sweden spotify klarna you know long list of success stories and and uh what we are uh what we say then you know did with slash and why slush became the biggest and best startup event is that i’ve been to hundreds maybe even thousands of these what i would call wannabe silicon valley events and wannabe silicon valley locations everybody wants to be you know silicon valley of this silicon valley of that you know i go to beijing and then i’m told that beijing will be the silicon valley of china and then the following day you might find yourself in hanzo you know home of alibaba then you know jack ma sings a song and the mayor of hangzhou will tell you that hong-joo will become the silicon valley of china and you go to tokyo silicon valley of asia and you know silicon valley of the silicon valley of that so with slush we decided to make that event happen in november because when you come to the finest bay area in november uh guarantee you that it’s gonna be cold it’s gonna be dark and there’s slush on the ground so it’s not the silicon valley it’s better and it’s much much better because it’s different and and this is again uh what the finest bay area development and what we are doing so the tunnel is just a way to now bring helsinki and tall in two capital cities together uh creating a metropolitan area with two million people okay you look at silicon valley three and a half million people so it’s not like uh the absolute number but it’s the talent density and i think that most people would agree that you know silicon valley uh is fantastic source of inspiration it has the highest talent density anywhere on the planet uh you know there in the san francisco bay area but what we are building here is the finest bay area so i mean there’s a greater bay area hong kong in china san francisco tokyo bay area seattle bay area but there’s only one finest bay area so that is what we are doing here and the tunnel is of just an enabler but okay it’s a pretty big enabler bringing the two capital cities into one metropolitan area with the highest talent density anywhere on the planet so when you ask you know a startup founder in argentina or chile or in china or in vietnam where they want to be they will tell you that hey my plan is to get on you know the direct flight from beijing to helsinki or you know towling and i’ll set up my company there because i need to be global so uh again uh that’s kind of like what we are building we’re building uh this finest bay area so they’re kind of like the better that we set out to do with slush and some of these other activities so the tunnel important detail but it’s not super exciting it’s you know exciting what is happening above ground and uh you know that’s where the action is.

Jeffery: I love the way together because you’re really sharing that it’s not so much about the initiative of building a bridge or sorry building a tunnel or a bridge or building a way to access the cities it’s about accessing the talent that’s going to evolutionize the area and change the way people work together change the way people communicate and build companies and that’s really what it is which all comes down to which is commerce and fast commerce so and i love the idea of putting it into a time period where people can experience uh the real helsinki the real finland and that’s putting in an event and the past has carried right through to the future which is where you’re going to be going so it shares a lot of light into the way you guys are operating today so in taking that into context which i think is amazing that you’ve been able to build around this talent side so now you go forward and you start to look at how do i raise money for such a significant project and i’m sure it’s somewhere around the 14 billion mark and maybe uh when all said and done it’ll be 30 billion to put this all together um how did.

Peter: 150 how much 150

Jeffery: 150.

Peter: You invest one euro in infrastructure it generates 10 or more above ground so that’s kind of the rule of thumb in uh the infrastructure projects like this so that’s why the tunnel is like a big an important part of it and it’s enabling this 150 billion to happen above ground.

Jeffery: I love it that’s huge huge returns so i guess when you start to break all this commerce down and understanding it costa maybe you can share who owns all this is it government owned to the government buy it from you uh are you treating it like a startup you guys raise money get investors and then you sell the company to the government or are you guys going to be tunnel operators for the next 20 30 years and and how does that all work and because it’s such a massive infrastructure it’s a way different approach to a business.

Kustaa: Yeah yeah that’s a excellent question there’s many topics to cover there but uh um what we actually did at the beginning was uh basically what any any business owner or founder would do so we we started to build a slide set around the business case so what does it mean to build a tunnel uh or what does it look from a numbers perspective and and we did a first pass of that and then we turned to uh our experts at pricewaterhousecoopers how we we know some of the local folks here and they validated our business case and it said that’s okay 35 years payback time and maybe one two percent of irr at that moment and that was not like the complete picture but some initial assumptions and and uh foundational information so we thought okay this looks very promising because we knew that we’re missing like cargo and and lots of details so we started to work more on the detail uh with the experts to understand what does it cause to bore the tunnels and and technology and so on so we we developed the business case further and we found some very good frameworks to utilize uh and and um then basically we came up with the uh the model that we are working on now uh and um we took those numbers uh to infrastructure investors who we knew that are capable of taking on this uh level of project because there’s not that many uh investors around the world who are actually capable of coming on board for a 15 billion euro infrastructure project so um then we we did whatever any startup would do so i went and pitched uh our story and and then we found some very good uh investor candidates who we signed up uh some agreements with them and we basically secured the 15 billion euro uh investment for the uh tunnel of course it’s gonna uh live its life uh during the course of the project because we’re still looking at multiple years of of construction and and so on and and but anyway we we have the framework uh agreed and and as peter said uh we we actually have secured also the uh the funding for this uh larger scope and then it kind of comes to your question that who’s going to own uh this and so on so the company doing the development uh the design the construction and the real estate development at the station areas is going to be our company the finest bay area development and the ownership will be well today it’s it’s fully us but uh some of the larger investors will come on board so they will own a piece of it currently there’s no government involvement so it’s a completely privately run project we hope the governments will will also come on board but let’s let’s see how that happens maybe and the tunnel will be i don’t know by this company the trains will be operated by the company uh and and um how the money is made is basically uh when somebody is using the train service whether it’s passenger or cargo and then they’re going to pay for it and and the money will go to the company uh that’s going to pay uh the costs and and loans and and everything so it’s it’s it is as simple as that uh all the station area real estate development it’s uh it’s not going to be our company doing everything on its own but it’s going to be you know whoever is active in this space in uh in finland in estonia and who sees the opportunity to work on that.

Jeffery: Amazing so when you guys are putting this together did you have to look at um all of the different types of costs of course that are going to come through how do you make some recurring revenue how do you pay back these loans how long is it going to take you so you’re probably always refining this model we’re finding refining because at the end of the day in order for you guys to be able to one uh get people to loan you 15 billion dollars or be to participate in this uh looking at a startup you could put the valuation at i don’t know 40 billion uh but people have to be able to see what the returns are going to be what’s the benefit for for them to be putting into this so i can see toll rates and all of these great things that you’ll add in because there’s going to be a convenience you’re going to own this space drive people through so i guess the final outcome is that you guys will be creating a new commerce channel and i think there would be a lot of opportunity for a government to want to step in because they’re going to see transmissions of people communications everything flowing and commerce flowing really quickly so do you think that once you guys break ground that there’s going to be a lot more interest of people wanting to be part of this project even more especially from the government side.

Peter: Yeah i mean there’s already like a big interest there absolutely and i think that uh but yeah i mean also if you look at the model that we built and and all of that so of course we’ve done like very very detailed like financial modeling of uh of the whole uh case so i think that’s uh that’s the only way to kind of like uh make this happen and uh and just on that model that we have of course then done the traffic comic prediction and we benchmarked the channel tunnel we benchmarked the urezun bridge so the basically the bridge connecting uh malama and copenhagen uh benchmark like a whole bunch of these but maybe the channel tunnel is uh you know one interesting example to look at uh because it’s uh what always comes up that hey you know come on that you know helsinki and towel in not exactly london and paris and that’s absolutely right so of course helsinki and dowling much much smaller but uh the travel intensity is much higher and the reason for that is that if i get on a train in london it will take me over two and a half hours to get to paris so it’s it’s called like a longer journey than between helsinki and tallinn even with the ferry with which takes two hours and we’re now talking about reducing the travel time airport to airport so helsinki airport to the ulame state you know the airport area and tallinn we reduce that to roughly 20 minutes and that means that uh you know the intensity of travel increases uh dramatically so uh it’s it’s really more of a metro connection connecting you know like it’s like an intra city when clearly london paris is like inter-city uh connection so uh uh so that’s kind of like a star so that’s why the london paris and the channel tunnel it’s not like a super interesting benchmark uh you know from a business perspective because it’s a very different case because nobody would argue that london and paris are the same you know like metropolitan area so that that’s clearly not the case and here we’re basically talking about the helsinki italian unified metropolitan area after we get the tunnel completed and it’s already very integrated if you even we know with the current connectivity uh helsinki and tallinn are very connected and very integrated but yeah then if you look at the more interesting case and that is the uh copenhagen so the urzun bridge and again the molymer and copenhagen not the biggest cities on the planet so like helsinki and italian but what happened when that bridge was completed was that uh more than 20 000 people uh moved uh from denmark uh to sweden and uh reason for that is that now you have the connectivity and it’s slightly cheaper you know to live in in sweden so our cost of living and everything uh lower than copenhagen and then what happened uh on the swedish side is that unemployment in school and i got pretty much like wiped out because uh a lot of job opportunities on the copenhagen side and then if you look at uh this example and you look at uh the situation between finland and estonia and you look at the difference in uh like standards of living so you know cost of living salaries uh you name it uh the difference between finland and estonia between helsinki and tallinn much much bigger than what you have between uh sweden and denmark so right now we have uh about 70 000 estonians living in finland and uh less than five thousand fins living in uh in estonia so once we have the 20-minute connection in place we expect tens of thousands of people currently living in finland currently living in helsinki metropolitan area they will move to tallinn because it’s a much lower cost of housing cost of living and then we expect tens of thousands of people in totaling to get a job in helsinki so even more than is the case today and and that uh you know dynamic alone uh actually uh justifies the investment in the tunnel so if you look at you know our business case it’s about the people traffic so you know very simple tickets 50 euro one-way hundred euro return ticket but uh maybe the most interesting thing in this like uh copenhagen you know analogy is that uh we have an annual pass so with unlimited travel between helsinki and tallinn for 2 500 euros and you will actually save that in a few months you know like uh two or three months rent you know if you live in town you work in helsinki it makes uh total sense to come like then go for the annual pass and you know like uh yeah you live in tallinn beautiful city you work in helsinki another beautiful city and and this is uh again the kind of uh effects that the tunnel uh will have so it has a massive massive uh dynamic uh changes the whole dynamic of uh of the region and and i think this is again uh important to understand and this is also uh like i mentioned that helsinki busiest passenger harbor on the planet why because of toweling so helsinki passed over which used to be the busiest passenger harbor uh sir helsing passed that already in 2017 and that’s because we have had this trend for a long time that the travel between helsinki and tallinn even with the current connectivity has been increasing 10 15 and okay now before the pandemic i mean hopefully we’ll get through the pandemic quickly and then we’ll get back on track uh like what has happened in china where domestic air travel is already higher than pandemic times so i think that we will see the same thing happen here but yeah so it’s uh people traffic about 85 of the business case and then the freight traffic is uh and and then a few other like utilities that we can run through the pipes that’s like the rest of the case so it’s it’s a very actually simple easy to understand case when you collect then start looking at it in bit more detail.

Jeffery: Well it sounds like there’s going to be a lot of moving parts to educate people on the opportunity educate people on the uh especially on the commerce side so it sounds like you’ve had to tie a lot of different elements in to kind of get people excited about it and show that there’s going to be a lot of transmission now you’re you’re doing this and focusing this around the train system that’s going to move in and out i’m sure there was a lot of people that you had to win over is there somewhere in here where people were against you and i don’t know maybe they’re creating signs and they’re marching around and they’re saying costa this is terrible i’m out of here you guys sir this isn’t right you’re ruining the world or something i don’t know was there anything about that and did you have to find any um innovative ways to kind of help people really grasp what you’re building here.

Kustaa: Yeah it’s uh always when you’re doing new things um not everybody sees things the same way so so change is uh uh it’s an important topic and and um for some uh it is challenging um we’ve had uh our obstacles and and i’m sure there will be uh more to come but um we kind of look at things always from the positive side so trying to find solutions rather than problems and that’s kind of how how we have approached everything we do and um a lot this is about communication um we need to tell um kind of what other how is the tunnel built so when we started many people said for example that this cannot be done technically or it’s uh it’s an impossible engineering challenge for example so then we we brought a lot of information and the experts to explain that this is not an uh overly complicated engineering challenge but it’s something that can be done with today’s technology so as an example of things that we have encountered now i think the the biggest thing that people are finding very hard to accept is the timeline that we can actually build the tunnel relatively fast and it is due to some technological innovations and and uh kind of uh the efficiency of our partners so it’s uh it’s something that we’re tackling at the moment.

Jeffery: I like it and what is i i just before we jump into kind of where the startups and all of this fit in what is the projected timeline of when do you guys kick off when you break ground when you see this being completed and yeah we’ll start with those.

Peter: So uh yeah again uh what we’ve learned here that that some of the processes take uh a bit longer than one would expect so it took us uh 21 months to get the government to government mou signed uh regarding the tunnel and that’s something that we expect to take just like a few months but it took 21 months but that’s now in place so that’s like uh very good news and uh of course uh we’ll do this in very close collaboration with both governments so uh basically uh working closely with the finnish government estonian governments uh then uh the regional and local governments so you know the cities here of course are really kinda like uh the driving gun like force because uh uh yeah cities is where it’s at and uh and that’s something that is uh very important so we have the four four cities involved so basically towel in helsinki espo and banta uh so we have the three cities here on on uh forming the finnish like metropolitan area so that’s kind of very important but yeah so we expect to break ground like next year so we have made the plans uh for that and we will use uh 16 tbms 16 tunnel boring machines so we will bore in eight directions two pipes any given time which means that the physical tunnel we can complete in roughly uh two years and then we need to put to collect the stations the you know the technology uh in place and and then so uh if everything would go perfectly according to plan uh we can still hit our like self-imposed deadline of having the trains running the 24th of december 2024 but uh yeah who knows uh you know we might end up with the 25th of december 25 or something but uh but anyway we are really uh focused on making this happen uh sooner rather than later and uh that’s also why we’re doing it as a private project we can avoid uh the uh eu like uh uh public procurement uh like bureaucracy and and all of that so if we need 16 tunnel boring machines we’ll just go and get them and that’s that’s kind of like the plan there and we know exactly how that needs to be done so uh yeah very aggressive uh timeline and and we we have been told that it’s not realistic but i think that uh it’s even more unrealistic to talk about having a government funded uh tunnel up and running in the 2040s uh that’s uh not gonna happen i mean if it’s not done by this uh private public partnership it’s not gonna happen so i think that this uh uh or should be very clear to to connect everybody involved and that’s again why it’s very important uh that we have a good uh um let’s experience uh here in finland and in estonia also to some extent about uh private public partnerships delivering delivering these kind of uh projects successfully i mean not at this scale and typically not in infrastructure but i think that that is the way uh the eu uh wants to move as well and wants to have competition at all levels of uh of collector connectivity so i think this is uh important so we expect to then connect with the rail baltic that is then you know the rail from uh tulin to paranormal to riga to uh konas to vilnius and then all the way to warsaw so that is also uh providing them great connectivity for uh the eu to come to the finest bay area and the other way around so so again a lot of uh yeah a lot of moving parts and a lot of opportunity but uh yeah we’re confident that we can pull this together by working closely with both governments so so that’s uh what we’re kind of like uh doing right now.

Jeffery: I love it so i’m gonna have to get into some quick facts just because yes i’m uh i guess we’ll call it a fact geek uh so in this moving things how much estimation of how deep are you going how much concrete are you going to use like do you have any kind of metrics and data around that that just kind of pops in your head it doesn’t have to be exact and then the last kind of part to this question is because you’re moving people between two countries is there a security protocol that has to be met or have they opened that up.

Kustaa: Okay so let me um give you some details so the tunnel is 103 kilometers long and all the way below ground uh from uh helsinki ivanta airport to tallinn airport uh the deepest point will be at about uh 250 meters below uh ground uh and that that will be um at the middle of the baltic or the gulf of finland uh baltic sea we will board two tunnels 17.4 meters in diameter so very large tunnels one for passenger traffic one for cargo and there will be room for uh future solutions and and other utilities data cables energy cables whatever and if hyper loop works in the future so happy to have a look at if we can fit that into then the four station areas uh will we look at uh developing so 50 000 uh or homes for new 50 000 inhabitants at each one of those so that’s a significant addition to the project two stations will be in finnish mainland and then there will be an artificial island and the artificial island will be built out of the 80 million cubic meters of rock that will come from the boring of the tunnels and the artificial island size will be about um three to five square kilometers so very large island and um fifty thousand inhabitants there as well fun and games entertainment sports and so on recreational place as well there are some facts for you.

Jeffery: Those are awesome and that is massive and in the background you can see that peter’s kind of shifting through the different look and feel you’re building islands uh habitat areas this is incredible so i can see that how much commerce is going to come out of this you’re you’re building a dubai in the middle of uh of the gulf here this is uh amazing.

Peter: Yeah but then we’re also known for like freedom and democracy and human rights so we’re include that in the package.

Jeffery: Wow that’s brilliant i love it so how does the so how does the security side work to all this how do you balance out being able to move in and out of the different countries is it passport based is it i bought a ticket and that’s allowing me to get it across without any how do you balance.

Kustaa: Yeah yeah i i actually didn’t answer that part of your question so so we’re working with the authorities in both countries already i have been doing so from day one and uh the border control and police and and uh military people are also involved so there is uh interaction happening so that we we know what kind of security checks need to be in place and so on but it’s good to remember that the european union uh and especially the schengen the freedom of movement so that there is no border control between finland and estonia as as they would be canada or us and um um you you can move freely and and the controls are more of like uh ad hoc um but what we are looking at is the the transit passengers so somebody arrived at the ivanta airport and then they want to move to uh to talin airport and continue from there or they want to go to rebaltic and continue from there onwards to central europe uh there we are looking at some innovative solutions where we can make the transit for foreign passengers as convenient as possible so there’s gonna be different types of technologies that we we can use to make it uh like a smooth travel experience.

Jeffery: I love it so now peter maybe you can give us an idea of where you guys have tied in startups to all this so you guys are a startup building a a few billion dollar business how do you educate and bring more people into innovation to help grow this entire space that you guys are working on yeah where does it start and what do you do.

Peter: Yeah yeah so so i think that uh again uh um uh what what we’re doing is it’s really creating gravity so that’s what we talk about all the time and uh i think that this is uh uh what we’re working on right now is is uh making sure that we have enough talent here so we have a university platform so there’s going to be international universities all four station areas so not only can you kind of like live and work there but you can also study so uh we’re looking at increasing the number of international students at the finnish universities in general 250 000 from currently 20 000 so that would bring us up to par with places like new zealand canada australia we’re also uh increasing number of international high school students in finland uh so that is another uh way of living like feeding into the university world and uh offering like opportunity to study at the best uh you know schools on the planet and uh we are looking at increasing the number of international startup founders moving to finland uh to 1 000 um every year so that is another thing where we’re putting in place uh streamlined processes and and programs so that you can actually come here start your company and and uh also find the talent because we have the uh increased number of students uh here and the same thing uh like estonian side so we have to look at this like whole finest bay area estonia has been doing fantastic in attracting startup founders i mean last three years they’ve attracted over 500 startup founders from all over the planet and uh with them uh 1500 people have moved to estonia and that’s like uh amazing numbers considering estonia 1.3 million population so it’s actually a significant colic increase and uh estonia is looking at doing a 10x on all of that so 10x the number of you know startups investments employees everything and uh and that’s actually what you you know then we’ll see happen because of the gravity i mean uh we’ve seen that in games the finnish games industry employs almost 4 000 people right now and uh adding another thousand in the next 12 months so it’s significant growth so we have the highest density of talent uh if you look at like just games and that talent then you know the companies the talent creates gravity on its own so if you want to maximize your chances of creating the next angry birds next supercell you know the next big thing then you want to be here and that’s something that is uh you know very very important so uh tunnels and infrastructure that’s like pretty boring in the end uh it’s much more interesting what that enables us to do so we’re really uh basically as the name you know like implies here we’re building the finest bay area and we expect to have uh the highest talent density we expect to be able to provide you know fantastic uh way of life and and you know like uh the nordic countries and and and finland i mean finland has been ranked the happiest nation on the planet four years running so uh we’re kinda like uh uh enabling access to happiness so uh we think that you can have a a very very kind like successful and happy life if you choose to come like build your company build your business here in the finest bay area so that’s that’s kind of like the plan.

Jeffery:I love it is there a is and all of that is it’s amazing all the touch points you guys have had to bring into this project uh as enablers to prove to the country that this is going to be something both countries that this is going to be something that’s just going to uh take over the area and make it into uh the next better uh bay area i guess or uh competitive knowledge.

Peter: So i mean you know and it’s actually i’d say that it’s facts based because it’s finn out of finland and east out of estonia so you know it’s facts based it’s not something that we made up it really is the finest bay area so um.

Jeffery: And how many startups do you think you’ll engage in this build like how many startups do you think will come through and work on this project or when all is said and done.
Peter: Hundreds a year
Kustaa: Yeah we’re already working with many many many and and we’re really looking at finding not only the companies that will help us to build a safer tunnel faster and more cost efficiently but uh also looking at other technologies and services that will uh enable the the area to be kind of like a future-proof city so doing a lot of work on that.

Jeffery: So do you think there’ll be a lot of add-on revenue streams that are going to come out of this project so you guys have built your kind of main ecosystem that you’re building but do you think there’ll be many more jobs and businesses that’ll be created as add-ons for services or cleanup or anything else that’s going to come out of this have you guys envisioned just the the kind of massive changes that can occur just alone in this cities by building this project the way you have.

Peter: Yeah there there will be a lot i mean that’s uh but again we’ll not be doing that uh ourselves so kinda like it’s enabling the ecosystem and i would say that this is a lot about enabling the success of others so i think that that is something that is very important here and and it’s a very collaborative uh ecosystem collect from uh you know the get-go and and that’s also why uh you know we’ve been very successful in uh launching many of the open source projects here in our part of the world and that’s kind of part of culture that it’s a very collaborative very open so uh that’s again there will be a lot of opportunity for a lot of people to build very successful uh businesses so this is really all about enabling that to happen and of course we expect to be very successful with the tunnel uh itself but that is as i said a few times now that it’s it’s uh an important detail but it’s just a detail in in the bigger scheme of things.

Jeffery: It’s almost a byproduct of what you guys are building.

Peter: yeah yeah or if you know like it’s a it’s a an enabler so uh basically by doing that we enable a lot of these other things to happen and by doing that we enabled actually the tunnel to be successful so you can’t really like decouple these things they they need to go hand in hand well

Jeffery: I think it’s overall it’s a it’s an amazing initiative what you guys are doing i love the fact that you’re enabling the success of others uh you guys are truly enablers and i think i wrote that line down i’m gonna use that many times because i believe that that’s really what’s going on here so uh very very impressed i think it’s amazing very exciting um and maybe what we’ll do is we’ll shift quickly into these other questions just because uh we’re kind of getting close to the end we’ve learned a ton so i appreciate all of what you guys have shared and a huge fan and supporter of what you guys are building so uh kudos to that so why don’t we jump into some quick questions and just to kind of share a little bit more about the investor side and then we’ll go from there all right so these are rapid fire questions they’re a little bit different from what we did last time Kusta but we’ll uh we’ll go with this um and it’s one or the other and you can both share answers okay all right founder or who would you invest in so this is all from the investors signing point because of of what you guys are doing so founder or co-founders.

Kustaa: Founder

Peter: Okay as a co-founder then

Jeffery: Unicorn or four-year ten times exit

Kustaa: uh let’s go with unicorn

Peter: Unicorn

Jeffery: Brand or Tech

Peter: Brand

Kustaa: Tech

Jeffery: All right first time founder or two times two three times founder

Kustaa: Two three times founder

Peter: Yeah if you have a choice but yeah yeah it depends but i would say both but yeah go ahead

Jeffery: Okay first money in or series a

Peter: First

Kustaa: First

Jeffery: I like it high risk angel or vc

Peter: Angel

Kustaa: Angel

Jeffery: Board seat or observer

Kustaa: Board sheets

Peter: Observer

Jeffery: All right safe or convertible note

Kustaa: Convertible notes

Peter: Convertible notes

Jeffery: Sure lead or follow

Peter: Lead

Kustaa: Lead

Jeffery: Equity or interest payments

Kustaa: Equity

Peter: Equity

Jeffery: All right uh these ones will take a little bit more time but and you guys can jump into them again as quick as possible but favorite part of investing

Kustaa: Uh favorite part of investing for me is uh kind of getting my head around new business cases new business opportunities uh and learning and studying the detail of those.

Jeffery: Okay

Peter: Yeah learning by doing

Jeffery: All right uh number of companies invested per year

Jeffery: Okay preferred terms

Kustaa: No

Peter: No

Jeffery: Open ended all right uh vertical is the focus

Kustaa: Focused

Peter: Yeah like uh basically differentiated like i’m always looking for like new and different

Jeffery: Okay all right now these ones are personal questions purely personal all right book or movie

Kustaa: Movie

Peter: What was it okay yeah uh movie

Jeffery: Okay superman or batman

Kustaa: let’s go with batman

Peter: Yeah batman

Jeffery: Eat the popper ice cream bar

Kustaa: Uh ice cream

Peter: Okay ice cream if i have to yeah

Jeffery: Hey there the world’s biggest debates five minutes with bezos or oprah

Kustaa: Oprah

Peter: Bezos

Jeffery: Oh i like that we got the the challenge there i like oprah too arsenal or manchester united

Peter: Barcelona

Kustaa: Manchester united

Jeffery: All right fair enough i’m trying to get people to get on the arsenal side i’m not finding as many fans uh bike or rollerblades.

Peter: Bike

Kustaa:Bike

Jeffery: Big mac or chicken mcnuggets

Peter: Big mac

Kustaa: Big mac

Jeffery: Trophy or money

Peter: Money

Peter: Money

Jeffery: Beer or wine

Peter: Beer

Kustaa: Wine

Jeffery: Alarm clock or mobile phone

Peter: Phone

Kustaa: Phone

Jeffery: Hotel or hostel

Kustaa: Hotel

Peter: Hotel

Jeffery: Who’s winning the world cup euro cup sorry

Kustaa: Denmark

Peter: Denmark

Jeffery: All right now we’re gonna have a quick political question does trump go to jail for all this stuff that he’s going through right now or no yes or

Kustaa: No no

Peter: Probably not it’s america after all

Jeffery: All right done uh last three questions favorite sports team

Kustaa: I think i answered this last time you’ll get it uh the ice hockey team in finland

Peter: Yeah i’ll go with us then so the ice hockey team from the west coast of finland

Jeffery: Oh i like this competitiveness it’s good yeah uh favorite movie and character you would play

Peter: Matrix

Jeffery: And character

Peter: I’ll go with miyotam

Jeffery: Done Kusta how about you

Kustaa: Star wars still and i think i said han solo last time so let’s go with that

Jeffery: All right done uh all right last question what is your superpower peter

Peter: Uh let’s say uh inspiration

Jeffery: Okay Kusta how about you

Kustaa: uh i i’m good at listening uh empathic uh understanding people

Jeffery: Both very valuable skills and and helping and growing entrepreneurs and as the line you use enabling the success of others so that’s brilliant um i appreciate all your time today guys fantastic i got to learn a lot about not only your project but you guys and all the great things that you’re doing uh keep up the amazing work you’re building an incredible ecosystem and the way we like to end our show is we like to give you guys the last word so anything that you want to share to the investor community or to startups um i leave that for both of you to kind of drop a message and again thank you very much for all your time and sharing today it was phenomenal.

Peter: Yeah so i’ll just say that like why don’t you come and check it out for yourself there’s a slush early december this year limited edition only 8 000 people can participate so we’re making much smaller but uh yeah come to the finest bay area i experience slush in december.

Kustaa: Yeah i think that’s a good piece of advice so uh look at also outside of your own country uh for the investment so it’s uh it’s a global world uh and uh getting smaller and smaller.

Jeffery: I love it well i’m gonna take you guys up on that because i’m gonna make my way there in december i think that’s gonna be part of my plan and uh hopefully unless the audience will do the same but uh gentlemen thank you very much again for all your time today you guys were awesome well that was pretty amazing uh getting to talk to two entrepreneurs and investors who are working and building a massive startup community in finland and estonia and building this underground train tunnel is going to be phenomenal so very excited about that as they mentioned they’ve got a pretty big event coming up something you want to check out and what i loved about everything they said was obviously from all the factual things for 103 long kilometers 250 meters below at the lowest level two tunnels 17.4 meters in diameter massive massive so exciting what they’re building but i think what i loved about all of this is that they’re building and enabling two countries to work together even better and building commerce across them across both countries and helping build up uh those ecosystems i think it’s phenomenal and i love the line and enabling the success of others big fan of that love what they’re doing absolutely brilliant so thank you again for joining us today if you enjoyed this conversation please subscribe to our youtube channel or follow us on spotify apple podcast or stitcher you can also check us out at supportersfun.com or for startup events visit opn.ninja thank you very much everybody and have a great day.