Jeffery: Welcome to impact investing brought to you by supportersfund.com from the student visa capital of the world Toronto Canada I’m your host Jeffery JP Potvin and let’s please welcome from the sauna capital of the world cleanest water and the with the most heavy metal bands Helsinki Finland we have Kustaa and Peter who are building the very first underground rail connecting Helsinki and Tallinn in Estonia. Welcome, Kustaa, Peter, it’s a real pleasure having you back on the show.

Kustaa: Thanks. Great to be here.

Peter: Yeah, thanks. Awesome back.

Jeffery: I love it. Well, to kick things off and I know this is going to be a little bit of a different segment because we’re doing a follow up to a previous interview that we did. So we’re doing a follow up to this massive project, this $15 billion project that you guys are working on. But because we want to do jump back into how this all started and where this all came from, maybe we’ll jump back into a little bit of cost and maybe you can share a little bit just super high level again, a bit about yourself and background and then Peter and then we’ll jump in to how those projects coming along.

Kustaa: All right. So my name is Kustaa Valtonen, an entrepreneur business angel with a tech background from companies like HP, Microsoft a long time ago investing my time and money into early stage companies and that with Peter we we ran a joint investment company that has about I think, 60 startups in the portfolio at the moment. And then of course we’re running this hits and keep telling an undersea railway tunnel project. So that’s one of the topics on the agenda today.

Jeffery: I love it. And Peter, how about yourself?

Peter: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So entrepreneur here in finance Bay area Hub and Finland have more specifically and yeah basically been focusing on increasing the talent density here in our new world. So in many areas we’re already leading the way. So I liked your point about Toronto being like student visa capital of the world. So we’re going to take you on for that. So we’re actually attracting a lot of talent, a lot of students to Finland and to Estonia and to Sweden right now sort of on this Bay Area. And that actually is also one of the reasons why we’re doing the tunnel project. So that’s one way of creating gravity when you invest 15 billion into infrastructure and in this case in Japan, it creates a lot a lot of, you know, these kind of like ripple effects. And and that is kind of one of the main main reasons. But then now if you look at, you know, our part of the world and I always talk about the Finnish Bay Area, we have the highest number of startups per capita. We have the highest number of unicorns per capita. And maybe most importantly, we have the highest amount of venture capital invested in local startups per capita. So if you look at like obviously the number of Estonia was number one, Finland number two in number three, Sweden number four and the US number five. When you look at venture capital for capital, we always have to add the per capita because we’re tiny little countries up here in north. So you know, have regard for it in absolute numbers, but we can do a pretty good job, you know, when you look at the per capita numbers. So yeah, the total project is like I don’t know if you can call it the tip of the iceberg in this case, because it is like the iceberg or like below water, but it’s sort of like a body. Yeah, if it’s got like upside down, like tip of the iceberg because it really is just like tiny little detail in this bigger scheme of things. And that is all about increasing the talent density and extending the lead that we currently have over the rest of the world when it comes to, you know, the startup ecosystem. And of course it’s all about the fuel. You know, it’s really people, namely young people. And that’s a big, big focus of our sun that we’re going to take on Toronto and the rest of the world. When you look at like number of student visas and maybe we don’t even add to the per capita thing, there will be a few in absolute numbers as well. So yeah, that’s awesome.

Jeffery: Well, I know that right now we’re sitting at a million students, I believe a year that have been it’s increased some staggering amounts. So I think that if more countries start to look at this.

Peter: But they’re not all in Toronto, that’s like Canada.

Jeffery: No, Correct. They’re they’re spread across Canada. Right. So that’s I believe that’s the full immigration number. And right now there’s 500,000 students coming in a year. So and what they say is that within three years, all of those people are moving to Toronto. So I think there’s some incredible maybe shift in migration across Canada.

Peter: Yeah, I think that you have total immigration, actually that 500,000. So they are not all students. But anyway, we will have, you know, maybe 500,000 students a year will get to a high number anyway.

Jeffery: No, that’s great. I think they’re probably trying to rope ours in because again, in the last two years, because of the high numbers of immigration coming in, students and and everyone that it’s putting a buckle on the system. So regardless there’s lots happening here, which is great. But I love that there is even more happening where you guys are at. So maybe we’ll jump right into kind of diving into the project and maybe costs that you can give kind of a quick overview of today versus a year ago on where the project sits, But maybe a little quick background on the project, you know, where it came about, why you guys decided this. I know we’ve talked in the past that you guys had found documentation that there was interest from back in 1861, and you guys know that this was obviously something that was really interested to all of the people in Helsinki and and the commuting and trying to make this more relevant, especially if you look at around the world. They’re doing this in a lot of countries where they’re trying to figure out how to make an bridge between two separate countries and move to move people in and out. From a commerce perspective. So this all came about. You guys are the ones driving it. So maybe a quick background on that and then we can dive into some questions.

Kustaa: Yeah, So, so glad you reminded me of the history of the project. So it’s not something that we invented, it’s something we decided to do and that’s a big difference. There. The idea has been around for a long time and I’m telling are not far away. The distance is about 75 kilometers. So it’s a pretty short distance. I think it’s probably one of the shortest in the world for capital cities to be apart. And then another argument in favor of kind of building a tunnel is that the the ground is very solid granite. So, so very good geology on the Baltic Sea to do tunnels. And it’s abstractly geologists are saying that it’s not complicated to do it. So we just take some boring machines and boring them and that’s it. It’s of course, an engineering challenge, but we’re working with the best of the bunch and making that happen 103 kilometers long tunnel with four stations connecting Helsinki Airport with Italian airport and one station on the Finnish mainland and then one artificial island that will be built because of technical reasons in the first place. We need emergency exits, ventilation and smoke on top of things. But also when you bore a very, very long tunnel, there’s a lot of work that comes from the building, so we need to put it somewhere on. It’s it’s not environmentally friendly to actually transport that sort of long distances. So we built basically an island and when you build an island, then you need to think about what to do with the island. So we have come up with this model that we will do like a 340 campus themed island. So education, entrepreneurialism, entertainment and this is something that is nice. It’s actually kind of reflecting what you guys just talked about, about the students quite nicely, because one of the reasons or basically the primary reason why we are doing the tunnels is that we want to create gravity. We want to create reason for people to come to the finest Bay Area, Finland, Estonia, Sweden, our part of the world, our region. And we believe that bringing a lot of students, educational institutions, universities, schools together, it generates a good sounding board and good fertile ground to do creating companies and this type of innovation. And that’s basically what we’re doing. It’s kind of a it’s a continuum of what Peter was just saying about this, these numbers that we are leading startup ecosystem and the area that attracts a lot of capital already. So our way of kind of making sure that we will stay that way and that we provide good feeding ground for the future as well.

Jeffery: I love it. Now with this setup that you’re currently working through, are there other ways to get between the two cities and two capitals as well? Like are there ferries that go across already? Are there routes that drive around? And basically you’ve got metrics to say that, yeah, it’s a three hour drive, it’s really slow with border crossing, etc. The ferry takes this long. It’s not really valuable. People are flying. So that’s creating a lot of other chaotic setups. So are there other things that kind of help bring the value back to why this tunnel would be such a great innovative way to move traffic between the two capitals?

Kustaa: Yeah, absolutely. And so today people are using the ferries. There’s a lot of ferries going between the cities on this well over 10 million. I think it’s 11 million passengers going across the bay every year. And Helsinki, believe it or not, is the busiest passenger port in the world. So let me repeat, the busiest passenger port in the world. We surpassed Dover in the UK in 2007 and we have been kind of going our own path since then. Biggest volume is between the Helsinki and Stockholm, Big one as well. And we have a lot of cruise liners coming over every year. So there is some big need for this type of infrastructure to be built and now I mentioned only the passenger traffic, but there’s also the cargo. So there’s something called the rail Baltic that is being built today already through the Baltic states, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania to Poland and then onwards through to Germany, Central Europe. And our plan is to connect the tunnel to the Baltic and it will be creating a new trade route basically for the logistics.

Jeffery: That’s amazing. This is very similar to what’s going on in Asia, where they also have a rail system that connects a lot of the countries together for the same to distribute products and are mostly obviously products, but same kind of concept. So I love the fact that you guys are figuring out a way to tie into that rail system so that you can show that commerce can be moving quite readily across all of these countries. Peter, maybe you can describe a bit more about the depth that this is going to be built, the timing. And I guess the biggest question before we’re going, I want to know is have you guys started have you guys started digging yet? So it’s pretty exciting. But yeah, maybe you could share a bit more about the metrics around that.

Peter: Yeah, well, I think that maybe also what the what we’ll start saying there, I mean we have nefarious today and that traffic has been growing since the early nineties. So basically you can take like a ruler and just like draw a straight line as being like, you know, steady growth with the exception of course of the pandemic when like there was a guy like stop But that’s that’s like an important thing on starting point. So the demand is there and we also know we have benchmarks, moderate projects like, you know, the old fashioned bridge between Parliament and Copenhagen and that is or that connection. There are like has been for quite a few years now. And they built a bridge. And actually when that bridge was completed, we had tens of thousands of people from Denmark that moved to the city side because of slightly lower cost of living there. Then everybody on the Swedish side got a job in Copenhagen. So that’s pretty much like what’s happened. And when you look at the Helsinki, it’s always situation. We have a much higher difference in the standard of living between Helsinki and following much higher difference than between like Sweden and Denmark. So and that’s data we know that we have 50,000 Estonians living in Finland, 20,000 are commuting. So just that traffic that will switch over to the terminal and actually we grow the traffic significantly. You can already use that to justify the business case. And is it born of dual roles? Of course. I always mentioned that when people ask like, Why are you building this? We are building it because it’s going to be a good and a big business. But yeah, if you look at then, you know, like construction and like all of that, it’s actually then take about five years to complete the whole thing. So right now we’ve been stuck with a bunch of permits and yeah, various like let’s say bureaucracy related issues for the last few years, but now things are moving forward again. So yeah, construction will involve 60 and tunnel boring machines, boring in eight directions to tunnels so that is also why the physical construction takes, you know, like around two years or something like that. Then we’re not done with the physical like boring of the tunnel and yeah, I mean, then, then we need to, of course complete the infrastructure with the stations on the rail and like whatnot. But overall it’s a very rapid, rapid like project. And as I said, for one business case perspective, we are very, very confident in this being a very, very good business. And also tunnels are not built for, you know, like a year or two, but they particular tunnel will actually last like forever or that’s at is what our geologists, our friends have told us that you know it’s going to survive the next ice age as well.

Jeffery: It’s incredible massive feat. And I guess things are taking a bit longer, obviously, from a bureaucracy standpoint, which makes sense that everybody wants to make sure the T’s and the I’s and all of these things are cross and dotted. Now, when you’re putting these contracts together, how do you determine when that potential start date is? Because everybody kind of has to figure out if I’m going to start today versus in two years from now, and making sure that you can get to the borrowing equipment. So you guys are in deep talks with Elon Musk and saying, hey, we’re going to start this. We need you to allocate it at some time within the next 18 months. Like how do you guys structure these contracts and is Elon Musk part of them using the borrowing technology? Is that part of it?

Kustaa: I mean. Kustaa

Peter: Let’s say not so much as some of us have, like our own reality and all of that. So. So yeah, I mean, we’re we’re there many suppliers of tunnel boring machines on and what we are building is actually pretty big scale like tunnels. So, you know, the diameter of the tunnels is much bigger than what’s going on. The boring company is building currently. But yeah, I mean that’s that’s not like a huge problem to get there. Equipment. You have basically three different places. You’ve got two or let’s say sources. So obviously China that owns most of these companies. Then you have Japan, you have here, in fact in Germany. So those are the three main sources of equipment when it comes to boring. And yeah, we’ve been talking to all of those guys and yeah, let’s say that we know what we need to do to get equipment. So that’s got like a pretty good shape. But I think that the main question mark is really when can we start? And we don’t really have like fantastic, great answer right now. A lot of depends on on the authorities, both more Finland and Estonia and their collaborations. So we actually have a constant dialog with everybody. And I think that, yeah, let’s say within the next two years we’ll be able to go like. So that’s a pretty safe bet, ideally like within one year. But again, I don’t know, always like the best answer we can can give on that point right now. But once we get started, then yeah, then it’s a pretty like free form, our approach process to actually like build, you.

Jeffery: Know, that’s, that’s pretty cool. So you’re saying that there’s a potential within the next year or two that you’re going to kick off and start to do this? What are some of the preliminary works that you’re doing right now to keep the ball rolling outside of obviously the governance side and getting approvals of those things? What are some of the other things that are kind of major pieces of this puzzle that you kind of have to make sure that you’re keeping your eye on?

Kustaa: Yeah, So so maybe I take this one. So it’s it’s it’s also boring work, but in a different way. So we’re talking a lot to politicians, to authorities in both countries where working on the environmental impact assessment, where we can we’re working on zoning, we’re doing a lot of design. So just like last week, I was talking to the engineering team about the track geometry of the tunnel. So what kind of curves and the ups and downs there will be and so on. So a lot of like this really practical work that it’s not really media sexy in any way. We don’t really share about it in social media, but there’s a lot of time and effort that actually is going into this type of stuff at the moment. And all of this will kind of lead to a point where we can submit a construction application to the government and then at some point stop stuff, the board, and we’re kind of targeting that. We would be ready with a functioning panel at the end of this decade, in the next one to let let’s see how we can make that work. It’s doable realistically, but requires, of course, a lot of good collaboration on both sides of the day.

Jeffery: Well, that’s great that it’s still realistic so that you’re putting this effort into something that will become fruitful and valuable for for both countries, which is pretty awesome. You mentioned the environmental assessment. Is there a group that you’re working with? It’s kind of given you, you know, here’s the 50 things you have to do in order to have this type of project move through the system, or is this kind of a hit and miss? You’re working and learning as you go on all of these different requirements that you feel you’re going to need in order to get this next approval or to this next stage.

Kustaa: That’s a fantastic question. And it’s it’s it’s it’s the type of question that we get often asked, but nothing in in that way, but kind of a different way. So it’s good to remind that the environmental impact assessment is a process. So it’s it’s not an approval, a list of things that we need to hit and then get the get a okay from the government. But it’s a process of things that we need to do. So in Finland, just submitting our program. So basically the plan, how we do the actual EIA was more than 200 pages in Estonia so far we’ve submitted 1500 pages to the government to answer formally their questions about different things related to the EIA and there is a governing body. So the Environmental ministry in Finland and in Estonia, it’s the Climate Ministry have formed something called the ad Hoc Working group. Very unfortunate name, sounds like something really ad hoc, but it’s a very formal function with ministerial representatives from both countries, from different ministries, different types of authorities, maybe 15, 20 people always in the meetings and they have formally had meetings, I think 15, 20 times, at least during the project we have been going forward and that’s the governing body. So one of the questions we often actually get is that kind of what is the government involvement? So that’s it. I think we actually sent out plans. We best ideas and of course they have the same kind of values and we just kind of align everything and follow the process.

Jeffery: And are when these documents are being built and they’re being presented obviously a 1500 page document, that’s quite a lot of information and probably takes some time to go through it and assess it on their end. Are they also hiring outside consultants to kind of go through and help them with the assessment and come back with the right questions and and have them better understand and go and talk to other countries that have done something similar so they can grasp that information so that this project will run smoother for all parties and have the proper governance and security measures put in to ensure that it operates again smoothly and makes it to success.

Kustaa: It’s actually a much more collaborative approach. So so let me tell you the example of how everything started in Finland. So we had like a kickoff meeting for the EIA on the Finnish side, and we set the Finnish national record for participants. So we had, I think, 75 different authorities. So so things like higher fire departments, Ministry of Defense, you know, you name it, they were there. So all sorts of different functions. And we all come together, we, we present the plans. They have a possibility to comment and say kind of what they they would like to see what what is good, what is batch from the environmental perspective for fire safety from anything and everything. And then kind of our role is to make sure that we take into account all of these different angles and provide documentation. But that’s kind of been going through the final critique and then off we go. And all of this work is to kind of build the foundation to to have a very good construction application of something.

Jeffery: That’s fantastic. So while you’re going through this on the auxiliary side, the out facing side of the of the business, are you able to start putting up the buildings, let’s say in Tallinn and in Helsinki, on each side of the shore where this is going to run into. So you can start to create these centers and start to drive commerce in these to help pay for things as you go. Like, are there ways that you’re trying to speed up other areas that can be sped up so that they can start generating eyeballs, revenue, dollars, etc., so that when you do start to borrow, you’re further along in that process? Or is the borrowing the first thing that happens and nothing else can really happen until the borrowing is done?

Peter: It’s actually a pretty good situation because again, we’re building a tunnel underground and work undersea and everything. So three or four station areas, they’re already in existence and there’s like one structure and happening it with or without us. So that is already and that’s also with deforestation areas that a lot of people work, a lot of people live in those areas and they are growing areas that are in dire need of connectivity. If you look at like the resort on the Mikael on the area in Finland, that’s one example. That is an area where we have all the university. You have a massive start up because this then it’s also home of many, many of the biggest corporations in Finland. So there is massive workforce and more and more people living in that area. So now that the area will get fast, connect connection to the Helsinki Airport, but also in 2004. So you have two airports in your neighborhood because to end is the you know, going through the final, it will take 20 minutes. So you will have like less than 20 minutes connection to Helsinki Airport told me airport from this dynamic airline, which is the most significant call like a business center or a concentration of business and talent in Finland. So that is already happening. There’s a lot of construction, a lot of people moving there. And then we have the airport station that’s already growing again, recovering from the pandemic. And like all of that, and then we have in Tallinn, it’s also like the Isla Vista area, which is also home of the airport. But maybe even more important, that’s where the real Baltic railroads are basically going from. Then in 2002, we got millennials and Warsaw and then like beyond. So and that station area is also attracting a lot of people, a lot of companies. So that is happening. So the main goal of the new land, our new area is the island station that is completely new is going to be roughly five square kilometers of new land, and that’s going to be home to 50,000 new people that will then live, work, study, you know, have fun on the island. So and again, that’s Ireland. Same thing, fast connection to two airports, fast connection to the rest of Europe. So that’s one is not basically being built yet but we’re putting more and more these into the island like design and under plan. And in fact we just published a few These are, you know, some images of the latest designs that we have for the island. So so three out of four stations being built, growing and attracting more people. So that is very good news here. And then, of course, we expect the island to have massive demand once we get to, you know, building building the buildings on that one. So, yeah, overall, looking very, very good.

Jeffery: I love it. So taking this island, which I find phenomenal to understand how you guys put this together, and I think from our last chat, that was one thing that maybe I missed or we didn’t get to chat about was the fact that you’re taking this is very circular economy. You’re taking the debris that’s created from the tunneling and you’re using that to create the island, which I think is so incredibly awesome. So from that, you build out this five square kilometer island. You’ve built a lot of startup ideas around this. And I know that you’re pushing a lot of new innovation that can come in and help support this build throughout the next 5 to 10 years. Has there been any new companies that you’ve seen that have been created because of what you guys have been working on that really stand out and and you’re excited for because of this project? You’ve seen, you know, these three new companies pop up that are really innovative and the rest of the world is going to start to use them because of the size of this project you’re working on.

Kustaa: Yes, that’s a well, I can’t say there’s one single company that’s kind of specifically come out of the project itself, but we have helped quite a few companies already to kind of expand their business or kind of build on it. And there’s a number of companies that we actually have invested in that we see will help us to build a better tunnel, faster, safer, more cost efficient and so on. So maybe to give a couple of examples. So one of our favorites is Circle K deal C, A deal. It’s a company that’s making this solution that will help to turn concrete, greener or manufacture green concrete. So they basically have a device that’s monitoring the concrete production line and it’s optimizing the water, sand and cement ratios so there will be less waste and the ratio will be optimal at all times. And it’s it’s a fantastic example of how we can kind of something that is used quite a lot. And it’s one of the biggest single polluters in the world. CO2 numbers are huge. So we’re kind of tackling that problem and we know that we will be using a lot of concrete in the tunnel as well. So we kind of took the bull by the horns and started to do something about it. And other examples a little bit different. One is that we kind of realize that we need some testing ground, some place where we can do training and education for all the people working on the tunnel project. So we we found an old mine up in the northern part of Finland and kind of around that we started to build this port. We took all of that basically brings together companies and that sort of evolved a little bit forward. So now it’s called the Smart City Innovation Cluster, and we got some Finnish government funding from business. Finland, and we have more than 100, I think it was 121 members in the cooperative now, and we’ve signed up some agreements globally. So supporting moderate Novo Nordisk Project in Spain and we’re kind of working on the new Indonesian capital, NUSANTARA also with this goal. So it’s a great example of how the tunnel project is sort of creating a new platform for innovation and it’s kind of driving a lot of these things to go forward. Peter, maybe there’s something something you want to add on the company, some innovation. So.

Peter: You know, I think that those are great examples and we expect a lot more and there’s already a lot of companies that are benefiting from what we are doing here. So I think, yeah, we can expect to see a lot of proven success stories coming out of this. So it is a massive project. But what always happens in there, like innovation associated with that. So so yeah, more to come. I would say it’s brilliant.

Jeffery: Now overall costing of the project, I know you guys have probably keep iterating and changing originally was 15 billion to Burra and then it was 150 million or billion sorry in overall commerce. Is that still the targets or is that increased, Is a decrease of things change or not?

Peter: Let’s say that that’s like the number, Shall we put in a lot of margin, a lot of buffer in that And yeah, the tunnel itself is still like 15 billion. And then of course when you invest in infrastructure, like we’re doing VR and we’ve seen that you know, around the world, but then that generates for every euro that you invest in the infrastructure. So in the control of this case and top of the tunnel in order to station areas, all of that to get to a next minimum so that these 250 billion in added bike investment and and yeah we are very confident that that will happen looking much like what is already happening in the station areas and what will happen at the island and all of that. So so yeah, it’s same numbers that we had since the beginning, but of course we will have time now to go in a lot more detail. So we have, yeah, it’s a massive spreadsheet, let’s put it that way.

Kustaa: This is really.

Jeffery: I can imagine. Well, it’s still incredible and I can’t wait. When you guys come out with all the metrics on like how much concrete you’re using, how much cable you had to lay, all these metrics and details that come out, I think that’s going to be so fascinating to see and look at because of, you know, it’s 100 kilometers, but it’s still incredible to know what came in and what was part of all of this. And when you get into that city and building that up, I think that’s also incredible. 50,000 people living on a man made island, which is also pretty sick. So you’re looking at one or two years to kick off this project and start borrowing. Financing has been locked in. Everything’s moving along. Has there been any red flags or anything that threw you guys for a loop at this point that you found fascinating? Because every every entrepreneur loves challenges and loves to solve problems? Has there been anything that just kind of throw you guys off and we’re shaking your head up because of disbelief of I can’t believe I’m going through this now.

Peter: I think that’s like, again, more more about dealing with the various processes with national governments and regional and local. So there’s a lot of dots on both sides. So I think that is what we expected and we’ve done a lot of work in areas that are hard and dependent on, like with collaboration with with the government. So so I think that it’s always a pain, you know, and it’s but you just have to go like deal with it sometimes it can be very frustrating. I mean, we would love to be already at that stage where we are actually boring actually building, but we’re not. So that again, is not very good, but it is what it is and, you know, that’s when we get get the tunnel down and we’ll get all of this done. It’s it’s just a question of time. But yeah, it can be very frustrating, of course, when you can’t make things happen at the pace that you used to want to do. So I would say that that the other biggest red flag, if you will, I wouldn’t make for it’s a red flag, but it’s is just it is what it is. Yeah. Fair. So I have two questions before we’re going to switch into the Rapid fire or sorry, into the 62nd red

Jeffery: when the burrowing is occurring, if you hit oil or you hit any other concern of of either good or bad value, what is the recourse, What occurs? And has that been obviously talked about? I know you said you’re going through granite, but at any point in time you can come across a gold pocket or oil or something or a gas. You might hit something of who knows when you’re down there. And then secondary, who owns that land that you’re burrowing through and who would benefit from that on the outskirts of you hitting something if it slows down the project?

Kustaa: Okay, so I have good news and I have bad news here. So the bad news is that we won’t find any gold or oil. But the good news is that we know the geology really, really well. So it’s been kind of researched and investigated them and our geologists know what’s out there. Of course, we need to do some sort of pinpointed studies and research ourselves, but we pretty much know what to expect and it’s going to be quite, quite a smooth ride. I would say your question about the land, this of course, on the Finnish border, it’s it’s the Finland government that owns most of the land. We’re going to be voting for Helsinki, KBS positive on some of the cities in the area. I own some bits and pieces. Same thing on the Estonian side. And then that’s about 30, 35 kilometers of international borders with the ability to handle that. Anybody can both tunnels in in the international zone. So unless you kind of meet the international regulations. So that’s quite straightforward also from that perspective.

Jeffery: Awesome. Well, that sounds very easy. Not complicated. So you guys will be able to continue working through and you won’t have any slowdowns. So I love that. All right. Well, we’re going to shift now into our 62nd rant, and then that will probably clean things up and we’ll probably leave it at that. But it’s been a it’s been a great relearning and getting an update on on the project. So we have a segment where we do called The 62nd Rant, where I give you 60 seconds in this case, because there’s two of you and I’m sure you can coordinate the rant, but the rant is meant to drive some hard feelings about something that you’re for or against, whatever that might be, I’ll time it. And then within when you have 5 seconds left, I’ll show you my 5 seconds and we’ll go from there and I will try to banter back, depending on what the what the rant is. But I don’t know, of course, that you want to you want to jump into the rant first and now Peter are into this. But I’ll let you guys to take that on. And if you’re ready to go, then we’ll hit start. We’ll see how this works out.

Kustaa: Yeah, let’s give it a try. I don’t know what to write about, but something about the tunnel, so.

Jeffery: All right, let’s do it. All right, You ready? You’re on. Go.

Kustaa: All right, so.

Peter: As.

Kustaa: We talked about the tunnel, we’re very, very passionate about building that and making it happen. It’s super frustrating, as we discussed already, that we we meet a lot of bureaucracy, we meet a lot of politics and trying to get people to understand why do things in a certain way, way, way to be able to tunnel what’s what’s kind of the purpose of that, how to make it happen in the best possible way, and what is the impact of that on a micro level, but on the macro level? So the societal level and also for the whole whole region and for that and also for Europe, kind of how we make about one small or a relatively small piece of infrastructure that can impact the GDP of a couple of countries and the whole of Europe. And that’s been very, very frustrating to see. That’s what people don’t really get it. So that’s kind of my rant on on or this 62nd challenge.

Jeffery: All right. Well, we’ll we’ll actually leave it there and I’ll rebuttal. And then, Peter, you can jump in so people predominantly dislike change. And I think that they fight back against innovation and change because they’re worried that something else of controlling factors are going to take over the world or it’s giving access to another country or it’s someone else’s making too much money, whatever reasons are, people just dislike change. So if they dislike change, how do you guys, when you want to push this through, how do you actually do something in micro steps which in the background you’re doing big steps so that people don’t always have to see what’s going on in the forefront, but they believe in you and start to build the trust that you guys are building. Something is really great and it’s going to be phenomenal. What is it and how do you do that? Because at the end of the day, I’m all for this innovation. I think it’s incredible what you’re doing. But at the same time, because people don’t like change, you’re going to hit more walls than you can imagine because of that. How do you overcome it?

Peter: Yeah, I think it’s very simple. Actions speak louder than words, so we’re just getting it done. As simple as that’s.

Jeffery: I love it. Why not? Why make it any more complicated in that we’re just going to keep hustling through this. And if it takes us ten years to do it, that’s all we’re going to do. And when we’re done, then everybody else can be appreciative and accepting to the fact that you guys have accomplished something that no one else has really done in a long time and you made some money doing it, and that everybody else has been able to bolster their economies from both sides of the border. So I think that’s incredible. I can’t see anything wrong with that. But like I said, things take time to change and the hustle is what’s going to make it happen. It’s so maybe very good. Maybe what we’ll do then is we usually have rapid fire questions, but because of the fact that there’s two of us and they’re going to be a little bit different, So why don’t we why don’t we do this? Why don’t we leave this as kind of our interlude into the next episode when we get to interview you guys again in another year? And I think if we can keep going this on for the next ten years, they will be to be there for the live kick off and the ribbon cutting at ten years. And hopefully we’ll have learned a significant amount about this whole project. And next time we’ll dive in deeper and maybe will even throw up some diagrams and be able to show more of the architecture and the design and dive into more of those metrics that we talked about. But I think this has been a phenomenal update. And again, I’m I’m the fanboy on the other side of the world excited for what you guys are doing. And I can’t wait to fly down and check this out as you guys start progressing forward. But if there’s any other things to add, any last words you guys want to share, I just want to thank you guys for joining us again and giving us the update. But like we do, we’d like to turn it over to you. So anything you want to share to the investor community or to startups, I turn it over to you. But again, thank you for joining us today.

Kustaa: That thanks Jeffrey, for the kind words. And it’s always fantastic to have fans. So we’ll book you on the maiden voyage of the Yes.

Jeffery: I Love Trains. AM This is exciting. This is very exciting.

Peter: Yeah, very good. And yet we’ll look forward seeing you and many others there. So and of course, you’re welcome to visit us here in the finest Bay area like anytime. So it’s always a pleasure to see more people here and there’s a lot of exciting things going on. So no reason not to come here. You know, like any day. Make

Jeffery: I love it. Well, if I don’t make it down to to your next event, that I certainly will in the next year make my way there but very excited to do that. So again, thank you very much, gentlemen. It was a pleasure regrouping with you guys. And I wish you both all the success on your up on the upcoming Burrowing and governance and compliance. But thank you very much again for your time. Thanks. Thank you. Okay. So just to do a kind of a recap, but this is a fantastic project. I’m just over 100 kilometers long in Berlin, 16 Berliners operating and going eight in two directions or in multiple directions, 103 kilometers, exact four stations, manmade island, which is so cool that they’re taking the debris and using that to create the island. And they’re going to have 50,000 people living on this island and make it all around startups, which is really, really, really cool. So there’s a lot of good things that they’re doing with this project and the fact that it’s going to be anywhere from 150 to 250 billion in extra added commerce that’s going to be running between the two countries, I think that’s pretty exciting for anybody that’s looking at the metrics. There’ll be some cool stuff that’ll come out, I’m sure, over time. But yeah, it’s it’s really fascinating on what they’re doing and how they’re doing it, and we’ll continue to do regular updates on this project as they continue to build through as they’re in year six and hopefully, as they mentioned by the end of this set, this decade, they’ll be able to have this project up and running. So thank you for joining us today. If you enjoyed the conversation, please feel free to share it with your friends. Subscribe to our YouTube channel and or please follow us on Spotify, Google or Apple. Feel free to share an audio clip around our show. We may include it in one of our future podcasts. You can find us on all social platforms, including LinkedIn Supporters Fund and your support and comments are truly appreciated. Please visit us at Supporters Fund or Startup events at Open People Network Account. Thank you and have a fantastic day.