Jeffery: Welcome to the Supporters Fund asking investor I’m your host, Jeffery Potvin. Let’s please welcome Rishad Usmani healthtech investor as our investor for today. Welcome, Rishad. It’s a pleasure having you join us today.

Rishad: It’s great to be here, Jeffrey.

Jeffery: Well, I’m pretty excited, Rishad, because not only are we having a little conversation prior to jumping into this, but what I what I love about the health tech space is that it’s like every space anybody can jump in and make magic happen. And it’s just how hard you work and everything you can do from a startup entrepreneurial side. But when it comes to health tech, there’s 8 million security, governance roadblocks, Apple billion people that don’t want to hear what you have to say because they don’t want you to affect their world. So I’m excited to kind of dive in and learn a bit more about how you see this world. And of course, now that you’re an investor, how much you’re able to change inside this world that you operate in every day. So the way we like to start off our talks is we want to hear a lot about you. So maybe you can share a bit about your background, you know, from your schooling all the way to your entrepreneurship days. You know, dive right in and then, of course, one thing about you that nobody would know.

Rishad: Yeah. No, happy to. The one thing I would add to that is after you get through all the regulation and compliance, then you have to deal with physicians and patients and payers and at times politicians. And each one of us has different wants and needs. I’ll start after medical school. I graduated medical school in 2012. I went to a Caribbean medical school. I did my undergrad in inner city of Toronto, you know, then takes undergrad seriously. I think my second year was in the twos and then kind of brought it up to the threes. By the time I was done, but not enough. Not good enough for medical school in Canada by any means. So I did med schooling in the Caribbean, still wasn’t really interested in being a physician, which is a funny thing to say. Being in medical school, but it was more I didn’t know what else to do. And partly my background is Indian, so there’s some societal expectations there as well. So as you know, I kind of make sense looking back at this, but I didn’t know much into residency after medical school. It took me three years and within those three years was a very transformative period where I learned lots of life lessons and it humbled me to an extent. Learn the power of cold calling, which is something I tell every founder. If you are not cold calling, it’s it’s your playing life on hard mode. So after medical school, I joined St Luke’s Roosevelt, which is a hospital by the Columbia University in New York. I did cardiology research there for one year and learned, you know, it was more a stepping stone to get into residency, which didn’t pan out, but got published in some good journals and learn more about clinical research in that field. As I was returning back to the States, my visa got denied because I did not have strong ties to Canada. My folks were in New York as well, so I stuck in Canada. A couch surfed about a few months. You know, I sleep in a friend’s couch and I could tell their partner was getting sick on me. And I was like, okay, I’ll go to a different Prince coach and called essentially all the medical schools in Ontario. What I knew is I had to stay clinically relevant. So to call that our stay in clinic in some capacity, thankfully Western gave me a chance and I did observer trips there, which is essentially follow physicians around. A lot of people or high school students do it, but it was a way for me to get and eventually one of the exams I wrote I did really well on and that landed me a residency at UBC who initially rejected me. And I’ve learned to respond to every rejection and just a simple thing. So, you know, thank you for considering my application and I think I’d be a great cultural fit and it would love to have the option to work with you or it doesn’t have to be anything. Eventually, they invited me for an interview. My first time in B.C. was for my interview for residency at UBC. I matched their I did Family Medicine residency, graduated in 2017 and kind of flitted about thinking what kind of physician I wanted to be and did different settings like Clinic, Hospital, Nursing Home eventually landed on hospitalist. So I was taking care of patients in the hospital, took care of the very first COVID patients in Canada as well out in B.C., but found my life monotonous to an extent. Medicine is a field where you struggle a lot long hours, lots of work, but when you get there, there’s little growth after. So it’s not a field that really incentivizes people to stay. People especially who were looking for growth continuously. So I thought, okay, what can I do to give me this feeling of growth? And we can talk about success and happiness and achievements and how they’re different things. And before I would equate them, but now I have a different understanding of the concepts. So I thought, okay, startups look interesting. I had no idea what a startup was, You know, I didn’t know what a safe node was. I did not know what an MVP was. Essentially, no business knowledge, but I thought I would. There are things we do in medicine that are algorithmic that I can automate here. So I started a clinic with the intent of automating travel medicine concepts because you don’t need a physical exam for them. It’s just a history. And then based on the history, you recommend treatment. Corbett happened, so that didn’t pan out. Pivoted to mental health in general medicine there. But now I was in an industry where I’m a service provider with low barrier to entry and essentially I’m a loss leader, which is the way to compete and to reduce your prices. If you keep doing that, especially as a startup, unless you have significant funding, it’s not a good way to achieve product market fit or adoption or success in startup. It’s a realize that and again, being a new leader in a startup, I had no idea what I was doing, so I was kind of learning the role as I go, made tons of mistakes, didn’t pan out, closed clinic up last year and wanted to stay involved in this in the startup ecosystem and the innovation ecosystem. And I also got married and had two kids in this and this time where we can talk about how to balance life and work as well. So I joined a friend of mine connected to Halo, Halo Health, which is a Physician Angel group and joined there and I sit on the board there. So a market of Halo health for more international or more for Canada and the US and a focus on teaching physicians to invest launch health like investors. It grew to about 500 physicians in a couple of weeks and we angel invest in startups. We had our first place competition closing in our on our first two investments right now and then have a podcast and newsletter as well. So kind of at a crossroads. I think I’m finishing on my fifth Angel investment and the plan is to continue investing in 5 to 10 startups. Maybe average check size around 50 to 100 K as a group for the next five years. And I think as most people in my shoes debating whether to raise a fund in some capacity, would that be a better way to go about this or not. I’ll puzzler Jeffrey.

Jeffery: Rishad that’s a great story. I’m going to ask you to say one thing about you that no one would know. Now, you did share a lot, so there is probably a few things in there. But one great nugget.

Rishad: I’ll say I’ll say a couple of things which are personal. What is I paint now? I do paintings and abstract art. Growing up, I was always told I’m not creative. I was always told I’m analytical. So I think we have the tendency to put ourselves in these boxes, you know, introvert, extrovert, visionary operator. But life is circumstantial. Our experiences are based on our environment. So I would say the ratio that you see now in a lot of ways is very different than the richard of the past. Yeah, I don’t know if that answers the question, but I would kind of just encourage people listening to not be stuck to these boxes. They don’t have to, you know, you can be an introvert, an extrovert, you can be a visionary and an operator.

Jeffery: That’s brilliant and well shared. It’s it reminds me a couple of weeks ago I did a talk to out of school and there were about 40 Indian students. And when I like to start opening up the conversation, I have everybody introduce themselves, their name. And one thing about them, they don’t know which is similar, and I couldn’t believe how many people in that class were artists, designers, musicians. It was incredible. Every student was, I love singing or I dance or I’m an actress. And I was like, This is incredible. So I think there is so much diversity that to your point that we block because we’re told one thing and we think, we should stick with this. And I know they’ve proven a million times that if you tell someone they’re smart, give them an A, all of a sudden they become smart. It’s that confidence layer that gets layered into that is being blocked because of other people’s beliefs or whatever the reasons are. So to your point, you know, don’t let anybody hold you back. Don’t let yourself hold yourself back. If you’ve got something you believe in and you want to try it, don’t hold back. Get into it. Try to.

Rishad: Yeah, I think a bias to action, an experience is the best teacher.

Jeffery: Great. Okay, awesome. Well, we’re going to go back to a couple of things that you shared and peel back on these. And one of them that I liked because you said it right from the get go. And this really defines pretty much any job you’re going to have when you first come out of school. And that is the cold calling the sales side and just learning and understanding where I fit in this space, what I’m good at, what I don’t like. And you went to saying right away that you had to do the cold calling and I’m sure that was like deer in headlights. You’re like, I can’t believe I have to cold call. But there is this level of excitement that when you are doing cold calling, especially when you get somebody on the call, it feels like this little victory. And then it’s really how do you work through it? And I’m sure the first cold call, someone answered to the 10th one. You had totally changed every single script and things that you were talking to and learned a lot from. It is there are a couple of things that you can kind of share a little bit more on that, because I think from a founder perspective, I think we lacked that ability to test our limits and try something different. And this makes a big difference. And it shows obviously in all the things that you did to get where we are today.

Rishad: I think what a lot of people surprisingly don’t do in cold calling is introduce themselves. So say who you are, and then you can say, well, you’re calling depending on the circumstances, but you can just say who you are and try and learn a bit more about the person you’re talking to. Sales is a is a people job. And I think people buy people by excitement and what solve their problem they don’t buy your product features the classic mistake is people you know jumping into this my I have this this I’m selling this product and this is amazing and it’s best as the best product in the market and it’s the cheapest product in the market. And it does these five things. You know, people don’t care about your product. People care about themselves. So they keep the focus on the person. And this is something I did with UBC in my interview, and I don’t know if they’re listening now, but I think it’s too hard now because I’ve graduated is the focus is on, you know, I want to be a family physician. That’s my purpose in life. You want to create family physicians, You want to select people who want to be family physicians, and that’s me. So I think a sales sales 1 to 1 tactic is keep the focus on the customer. And there is there’s tension here when it comes to health care, because as patients, what I want is to feel comfortable to be happy. And sometimes I prefer a short term reward at the risk of long term punishment. We see this with antibiotics of viral illness as opioid stimulants, and we see a lot of startups kind of we really stick to this customer obsession. We can get into the tension there. If you want something to be wary of when you’re building in health care.

Jeffery: And when you were talking about what you were going through, you your one. I love how open you are to it. The calmness of just being able to free talk. Obviously your journey, which is exciting. Fales wins all of the above. And then when you started to talk about, you know, diving in as an analyst and doing research and you’re learning throughout this process and of course, cold calling and tying all these elements of sales into it. But just the fact of how you went to school and how you decided, well, I wasn’t sure then I’d up my grades a bit more to get into X. It was almost like everything was a trial and error and you were going to land somewhere. You didn’t have a direct. I’m going to be, as you mentioned, a physician. I’m probably going to be somewhere in this field. I’ll see where it gets me to. But there was this thought process of trial and error, and this is your journey. Sounds so much like a startup. And today your startup is now filled its quota of where it wants to be. And today you’re working as an investment. But throughout that process, you were going through the trials and errors of trying to figure out what your startup was going to look like. Or at least that’s how my head is registering your story. And now you’re at a spot where you’re in a great area, you’re building a network, you’re building a community. So when you go back and look at what you went through at that on set of trial and error to get through school and then figuring out I tried here and I still had a way of responding back and making sure that the school was, you know, hey, you didn’t accept me, but I respond back anyways and say, thank you for your time because I don’t want to burn that bridge. I might be back. So it sounds like this journey of of trial and error was actually very fruitful in educating you on how to help others today. So if you go back to that early onset, was there a driving factor? Was it I need to end up somewhere, I have to get into school or my parents are going to think of the less what was the driving force behind all of this? Because again, then you threw out, I had two kids and I got married all in this little short period of time. So it’s such an amazing journey. But it started somewhere. What was the driving force behind all of these little pieces that kind of all tied together?

Rishad: You know, I’ll give you the selfish personal answer and I’ll give you my, my, my macro view of the world, which kind of drives me to do things. So I was in debt, 350,000 student loans. So I needed a way to repay that. And the only way I saw is to be a physician, because every other job I kind of listed down didn’t make enough income. So I had this fear as a driving factor, which I was kind of running away from this debt I had. And to be able to pay that back what I was running towards to an extent, and this is something I’m changing my mindset on to an extent you could say the happy person is a person who has enough, or you can’t have the happy person as a person who is continuously growing. My default intuition is the latter is the person is continuously growing, and it’s the wrong default to have a much better place as being happy and accepting you have enough, but you know, it’s something we can keep trying to change, but it is our default intuition regardless. So I constantly see growth and I’m very easy to get. I get bored very easily. So that was essentially what I was trying to do is seek new challenges and when I pick what I want to do, I default to the hardest thing. Because in my head, and this is somewhat insecurity from a child, you know, I was overweight and I still am to an extent bullied to an extent as well. So a lot of insecurity. When I was a child, I used to exaggerate in life, but that insecurity still drives me to keep growing and to keep doing more. Now I am driven towards seeking the truth or really trying to figure out how the world operates, what incentives exist in this world, how people make decisions, how companies make decisions, and startups grow. And the problem of the startup is a very difficult problem to solve. There’s so many variables, and to me that says this is exciting. I think it’s fun. I enjoyed my startup. ARONOFF You hear a lot of founders say that, but again, it comes from looking at the world, the universe, as a as a puzzle to be solved or a very complex equation or a very complex patient that presents to my hospital and I have to take care of them. Yes, I’m still trying to kind of peel back the layers and figure out now I think I have somewhat of an idea how to build an unsuccessful startup. So maybe, you know, building on that as successful as startups is just correcting all the areas I recognized. And in this building, this community, I’m trying to take those lessons. And one of the lessons being when you hire someone hired for a loyalty commitment, don’t hire the rockstar. Adam Grant talks about this in his book, Originals. As your startup grows and gets into the growth space, then the rock stars matter more and looking, putting. My investor had Pre-Seed stage all about the founder. The best founder will find the right market, the right team, the right idea. But it’s about the Founders series and beyond its market, you know, it’s are you in the right market? Are you on your path or do you have product market fit and the study from Idealab about what is the most important precursor of success market timing completely different from the public markets. I don’t want people to conflate the two because, you know, I see a lot of people who come from real estate or public markets and they want to invest in startups and essentially have to look at real estate, public markets and then private markets. And even within private markets, private equity and venture capital only stay as different things. There’s not there’s not many parallels. You can rather.

Jeffery: I totally agree with that. And I like the fact that you’re, you know, the comment you made about building for loyalty. And it really comes down to that founder focus and how well they can pivot in the knowledge that they contain and how they kind of move their business forward. When you’re earlier on, you talked about culture fit, and culture fit is kind of fits into that same thing on the loyalty side. And we were talking about this prior, is that, you know, how well the team responds to the founder and then the how that carries through and that all comes back down to culture again. And because the world’s been shifting so much, you know, as you alluded with COVID and all the changes, how do you see that culture fit changing? And and in hospitals, maybe they didn’t change as much because everybody still had to go to work at a hospital. You couldn’t stay from home and work from home and maybe in ten, 20 years to be able to do a surgery from your home. But I think it’s pretty practical that that environment didn’t change. Maybe it lessened by the amount of all the people going in and out, but it was still active. Have you seen and do you feel that there is a cultural shift change in that environment or the way startups are approaching health care today than they were maybe five years ago?

Rishad: I think culture is is an end product of following your priorities and recognizing your priorities. And I think when you’re trying to lay out your priorities, look in the past, look in the immediate past, how do you spend your time? How do you spend your money? What pisses you off the most? What makes you the happiest? And look at it from an objective standpoint. I think there is a change in culture in remote work. And the change I you know, it’s hard for me to say this because I love remote work. It is not aligned with startups. It’s very difficult to build a startup remotely, especially in healthcare. Now, once your post product market fed. Sure. I think there’s there’s more room for that. But early on, you know, radical honesty building a committed loyal team is is very important. Not that you cannot do it remotely, but if you do do it remotely, you have to be very you have to be very structured about it and very diligent about it. The one thing I did is I record all my meetings and then everyone can watch them. This is following Ridley’s principle. He’s famously radically honest with kindness, but just because you’re honest doesn’t give you that. The you cannot be rude or unkind in the name of honesty. Yeah, I think when people talk about culture, often things you know, they’ll say they conflated company culture, social culture, and they’re different things. So gay rights, abortion, those are those are social culture things. You can have people who defer and those things and still have a very loyal and committed company. As long as everyone follows radical honesty with kindness. So I think there’s something to be said there. But, you know, there’s a reason companies are moving back to work in office. No, I don’t think a big scaling company was already established to do that to an extent. Again, maybe this is something I’m talking about, things I don’t know because I operate in the very early stage, but I think a startup, it’s very difficult to build that remotely. It’s not impossible, but it’s difficult to create.

Jeffery: It’s a little harder to get new people that are all new to each other working remotely to figure out people’s good, bad and quirks and things like that that help motivate and drive people. If you’ve never actually shook their hand or got to see them on a regular basis and could figure out how to solve problems quickly, they end up becoming longer, draw no problems. So I would assume there’s many other reasons for it, but it certainly would be seems a lot more difficult to try and do everything remotely when, you know, you have accelerators and incubators that are they’re purposely done so that you’re not only mixed in with your own team, but you’re mixed in with other like minded entrepreneurs that are doing the same thing. So you’re all kind of working to invigorate each other in that high energy room. And if you’re lacking that room, then maybe that makes things run longer and burn more time and effort.

Rishad: Yeah, and I say that, but my investment Angel Syndicate is mostly remote. And is that because we have investors from all over the world? We have a couple in UK and then Canada and U.S., but you say something there that I think we can go deeper on if you’d like, is identifying the laggards that is so important. And instead you can have people who are coasting along and for a big company it’s fine, you know, have a few of your employees coaching long, you know, you providing people with housing purpose work, that’s great. I think you can look at it from that perspective. But for a startup it could be the death of the startup If you have laggards early on because they have equity and with founders don’t realize as equity is very precious and you kind of notice when you go further along and you’re trying to hire an external CTO or a CEO and they come on and they say, okay, why does this person have 20% equity? What have they done? And it becomes very evident that you were frivolous with equity. So I think what I would like founders to keep that in mind as an investor, I have to identify laggards early on as well as the mistake investors make. And I made it so in the past as well, where the companies that you pay the most attention to or need your help the most, you want to think they will succeed because you want to believe that you are helping startup succeed. And depending on what kind of investor you are, you can say your job is to really focus on picking the best founder is not making the best founders, which, again, you know, if a company is lagging behind, you can do what you can to help. At some point you just have to kind of recognize, okay, I’m not going to get my money back here and focus on the on the go to say winners. And same with the founders.

Jeffery: It almost goes back to the 10%. You’ll focus on the 10% and the rest the 90%. You just let go because you can only do so much in that 10% as the winners or the value that, you know, we’re going to grow and move its way forward. But you end up spending all your time with the 90% because they’re the ones that are having the most problems. So they’re hammering you while you’re trying to focus on the ones that you deem as being successful. So I do think there is some there is certainly a a crisis because you do hope that everybody can understand the value that they have, what the exchanges, what the equity value looks like in a business, but also that they have their hand on the pulse. And you know, one thing I’ll share that I always look for in a founder is that I want them to be used to say they were psychotic, but people told me I couldn’t use that word anymore because that didn’t work very well. So I will now share. That is the fifth gear. You know, the the LeBron James fifth gear or the just anybody that just really can change the game in a second just by, you know, Wayne Gretzky, whoever you want to look at, they just have that ability to change the game by just turning it up a notch. And then all of a sudden the game has changed hands and now you’re moving in the right direction. They know that’s the type of founder you’re looking for. And how do you find them? You know, and if I go back to the start up that you created, I think this is seides well, with its experience and I listen to some of the other podcasts we chatted about and it says that, you know, does it matter if they’re a first time founder or does it matter if there a second or third time founder? Can they navigate things better? Can they be better because of that? And I think a lot of that experience comes down to is how do you maneuver and how fast can you maneuver. But also when do you see the writing on the wall and decide either pivot or close down and move on and, you know, taking your experience that you created with your business, you said you loved it, which is phenomenal. That’s passion is kind of the number one key rule that everybody looks for. So if you take kind of what you went through in all the learning you had prior and then during your startup, do you feel that it your you enabled yourself with the right knowledge and understanding of the environment to put your best foot forward into that startup? And then when you decided, that’s it, I’m done, the outcome of that experience, do you think that that would create your next business to be ten times better than that one First one.

Rishad: Yeah, definitely. And sometimes as an investor, you’re paying for the founders education, but there is some truth to investing in founders so you can invest in their second strategies because you know this founder will create a unicorn at some point in their life. The reason I don’t invest in part time founder is because of my start of expense. I was still full time in clinical medicine and I was doing my startup. So I do full time jobs essentially. And it’s just you can only do that. So I think especially with a family, I think a year or two and then you’re kind of done. So I was very burnt out in my startup and which is why I guess it’s a privilege to be able to work and you sort of full time. But I think it’s almost a necessity given the amount of bandwidth, time and energy it takes to go from 0 to 1 or zero. The product market fit the grid.

Jeffery: So now taking all the clinical work and all of the understanding you have of the space and of course startups and what you went through, are there any key takeaways that you would share with founders in the health tech space that would help them better understand what they’re getting into? If it’s their first time? Obviously for the second or third time founder, they’ll have an understanding of the health tech space or med space. Is there something you would share? They would say, you know, here’s three things you can’t do because it’s not going to work. And here’s three things that are positively ways that will help you kind of get around and bend some of the corners to succeed.

Rishad: Yeah, I think the advice will vary depending on if they’re biotech, medical device or digital health or pharma. I will say understand the market landscape. Just because you’re solving a big problem that patients or physicians have does not mean there’s a market for it. In health care, there is a difference between the player and the user, and this is similar to enterprise software, but the differences is much wider. And there are two different entities. Usually when enterprise software start, founders say, I want to be in a parallel market like health care or an adjacent market. They bring the same sales techniques to an extent, and it’s just not the same because as a physician I have the Ministry of Health in Canada and it was pays me. But they essentially have no operational oversight and I have no operational oversight over them. Like we have no idea what’s going on with each other apart from those funds being transferred. So I think to understand that and understand understand what is a marker or a metric of success for your part of the payer, because essentially that’s who you’re selling to. If you’re in the B2C market, then understand if you need physicians or clinicians in your pathway of I see founders kind of treat physicians as an afterthought in the sense that, you know, this is what’s good for the patient. Yeah, physician will prescribe it in some ways in Canada anyways, a lot of physicians were running businesses and how businesses make decisions as increased revenue, decrease expenditure. And specifically if you’re talking with bigger corporations, increase revenue, decrease expenditure in three months. So because finances work on a quarterly cadence, your startup has to show benefit within three months essentially. So understand that I get a lot of founders with amazing products. You know, this will save patients lives. This will improve health care. No one’s willing to pay for it. You have to understand your market and you have to understand the pain points of people who are paying for it, not the people who are using it. Because those are two very different things in health care. And we see this, you know, with health systems by Amazon, things that make our life as physicians tangibly worse, but they increase billings for the health system and reduce liability for the health system. And those founders that figure that out, you know, this is what my my the person is buying my product. This is their pain point of success for your acquirer. And this is true in medical device as physicians will use it, especially if they’re targeting specialist physicians. It’s a lot more leverage. A neurosurgeon has a lot more leverage over hospital than I do because the hospital is often reliant on the neurosurgeon to operate certain surgeries or it’s a bulk of their revenue in some cases. So if you’re developing a medical device that a neurosurgeon will use, well, you need to know will they use it then? Their focus needs to be on that. So identify what is success for your buyer or for your acquirer. So, you know, for Bayer, Abbott, Johnson, Johnson, Boston, they call these companies success maybe. And I’m not going to give you the answer here because I think the founders need to do some homework and and it will be variable depending on who you’re talking to. Will physicians use this and what is the standard of care? What is the cost to maintain and replace the standard of care for the health system or the physician? And then how much better is this? Generally, you want ten x better and ten x better could be defined as cheaper or faster are the two easiest things to define it as opposed there, Jeffrey, Because I could keep talking.

Jeffery: You know, this is great. And I think the way you kind.

Rishad: Of.

Jeffery: The way I’m understanding this and to take a step back and kind of wrangle through this for everyone, is that what you’re saying? Is that just like basketball and everything else, media and entertainment is about making money. It’s revenue. It’s not about the team, it’s not about the players. It’s not about the great game they put on tonight. It’s about how much money that all of that makes and how does that make enough money to pay everybody after. And if you’re going to just throw this new product and it’s going to save lives, it has to make money, That’s it. Generate revenue and you have to change a process. There is a process that’s been in place that when a practitioner goes in for surgery or whatever it might be, they follow this 20 step process, grab this tools here, set up this here, this is how this is all done. And if you think you’re going to come in and wipe that all out and change it all around because you built in a new talcum powder when they never used talcum powder, you really better be able to make sure that you can prove that this is going to bring value, would increase revenues and increase value for the overall objective. Just like in a sporting event, everything comes down to the dollar that’s made. And I think maybe sometimes we focus too much on the solution and not enough on who the solution is actually being sold to. So you’re correct in saying that this might be the best solution in the world and it could save millions of lives. But if someone can’t pay for it, that will never see the light of time, light of day. And that’s a process that is a pain point that’s not being resolved because you looked at it from how can I save lives versus how do I make money and make this product fit into your product stream or your KPIs. So that process didn’t change. So I do think that that is pretty crucial that maybe people don’t always think of it that way when they’re first building this product. And I think that would make a big difference on how you can slide into this process in the future.

Rishad: Yeah, I know that’s well said and you can do both. But unlike Enterprise or where you’re selling to the CEO or whoever in the company, health systems do not have decision making capacity or physicians because we accept liability for our decisions. So even though you might sell to our system, if we refuse to use or prescribe or the product, then that is a loss for the health system often. So, you know this is what health care is so hard because while you have to have profits and you have to focus on revenue increases and reducing expenditure, you also have to make sure physicians will use the product. And you also have to make sure patients will like it and minimize losses and things those. So there’s a lot of different layers in health care. And I think, you know, most people in health care will happily talk about that. But founders need to understand that and not just focus on, okay, this is a pain point for physicians. I’m going to solve this pain point. Well, who will pay for it and how does that what are the downstream effects of what you’re doing? And the downstream effects in health care can can last decades, as we see with opioids. It’s a classic answer to being customer obsessed and really focus on a pain point of one single individual, which is the patient. You know, if you’re in a lot of pain, you want to be not in pain. So if someone gave you something to be not in pain, you might take it without understanding the long term effects of it, which is essentially how the opioid epidemic started. And then coupled with marketing tactics like pain being the the fifth vital sign, which essentially means, you know, the goal is to be pain free, which is not the goal in pain treatment. Because if you feel better in an accident, if you have arthritis, you will be in pain. We don’t have the answer to remove your pain. We have the answer to reduce it. We have the answer to maybe shift mindset and focusing on activity and what you’re doing instead of focusing on the pain. But this is not an easy shift. And I think, yeah, but any physician would have told you that. I think there’s you have to look at it as a whole. But, you know, like when it comes down to it, these are somewhat moral and ethical obligations or challenges. Purdue still made a lot of money from opioids even after the pain everyone notes. I think you have to kind of personally decide where you land on this issue. I think most of us will land on. We don’t want to cause another opioid epidemic even if we make some money. I hope so. Anyways.

Jeffery: I hope so on that part too. But it’s interesting that, you know, the world says that the health care system is broken about. You could say education’s broken, everything’s broken. There’s nothing that actually works like it’s supposed to. And I and I agree and disagree that that is a way of looking at things. I think everything is broken to everybody’s eye. Like I’d be a holder. They can choose what they think needs to be corrected from governments to health care, you name it. Everything has a piece that can be modified. But what they’ve done is that they’ve they built a home or they built a wall. And what they’ve done is they’ve layered that wall to be structured so that it becomes more secure each time. Maybe it was very thin the first time and every time a new government or a new body comes in, they strengthen that wall. And that’s just done through process understanding revenues. You know, every year it gets bigger and better, but it has very minimal change that you can see as the observer from the outside. So we always think it’s broken, but it’s also self perpetuating, but it’s also self-protective. So just like the health care industry, when they were getting insurance, you know, they can’t just go and throw in 8 million new tools this year and say, Hey, this is all great. We’ll be able to do X and Y, but there’s no pre studies, same thing. And cars and planes, they just can’t make these big overhauling changes that we all think are going to happen. The industry has been built over centuries and decades, and each time that wall gets a bit thicker and more sturdy, but it’s not at the pace everybody wants. And that’s because the fear is that if I make the wrong, that wall will break or that wall will crack or fall apart. So is there you know, you mentioned a bunch of ways of making this by focusing on the revenue side. Is there any last advice that you can share that would say, you know, it’s going to be a tough battle, give yourself at least six years because it’s going to be six years to crack into this. And, you know, while you’re doing that, make sure that you’ve got the best coach and mentor. Find a practitioner that is, you know, an M.D. of a hospitals, they can back you because you need that type of strength behind you because it’s going to take a while for this to break into the market. Is there kind of some things or thoughts that you might have that will help enable a startup or even an investor to look for in this type of program? Because again, it’s this is a long haul. This is not a short investment cycle when it comes to investing in meds or pharma or health tech space.

Rishad: I’ll say I’ll kind of carry this by saying from a financial perspective, this is the best time to be investing. A down market is the last down market. So Uber and Slack and Salesforce and tons of unicorns that we’re used to and that are household names to an extent. So from an investor perspective, you know, it’s amazing valuations in the know, it’s a it’s a great time to be investing from a founder perspective. One of the hardest things to do is follow the mantra loose ideas strongly held or strong ideas loosely held, which is have conviction in your idea, but also the ability to pivot. And when things aren’t going well and identify metrics that matter which are maybe not revenue based early on because you want your surging product market fit, you’re not chasing short term revenue, identify the 10% of your customers and focus on those. Identify the path that leads to your vision and then have your vision be malleable. A few tailwinds, and I’ll kind of share this for founders that I’m investing on. I know a lot of other investors are investing on is a digital front door hybrid home care model. The concept of hospitals doesn’t make sense to me. It doesn’t make sense to a lot of people. Why congregate all of our sake into one this building until I go away from society, you know, provide care for people where they’re comfortable, where they’re happy, which is an expansion of digital care, I think is a must. People don’t want to travel when they’re sick. I think it’s a simple concept to bring care to them. So the things I do that I think will be looked upon favorably. Mental health has been a massive focus in some ways, life is is difficult right now for a lot of people with inflation and cost of living. So I think there will be some change in the definition of mental health. But products which improve mental wellbeing, you know, will always be looked favorably upon, especially in the employer space with disability being a bigger and bigger burden to an extent mental health and reducing disability, I think that’s that’s a good tailwind is a lot of advancements in biotech and personalized medicine have come along with personalized medicine for cancer care we’re really having for diabetes, heart disease. So I think there’s there’s something there and I for clinical trials is another one I’ll kind of push out. If you’re building in software, the value of software is low. The value of data is very high, especially proprietary data. Exclusive data and good data. I think the future of physician notably videos and I’m going to cover this by saying if you watch about if you watch the transcript of a basketball game, you know, and then say, ask yourself, do I know what happened? Yeah, you know what happened on paper, we don’t really know what the energy was like. You don’t know what the emotions were like. But we seem to think for a clinical encounter, we can just read a transcript and know what happened for surgery. We get the counter there as well, you know, So having text based records makes no sense to me. Now imagine if you never watched a basketball game and all you saw was the text, which is the reality for a lot of people using these surgical notes or clinical notes and then trying to make products to make it better and, you know, go, go observer surgery, go observe a patient in control of someone who like your friend, maybe from the physician’s perspective, you know, our decisions are visual, visual and audio. They’re not based on charting and oftentimes will not for hours after encounter. So the the gap between what actually happened and what our clinical decision making process and was reflected on text in the chart, it’s a very wide gap. So to me it’s not surprising that we have to replace clinical decision making with the eye because we don’t have the data and we will never have the data until we have audio visual recordings. Text will never capture the data and you can have these eyes, great apes, but even, you know, they’re not capturing the physical exam or the how the patient looks.

Jeffery: There’s a lot more visual cues in that process that they’re lacking because they’re not being described as you mentioned. Yeah, I love it. No, that’s that’s a great share. And I do agree that with obviously, of course, with all of that. But I do like that you’re being forward thinking and saying that, you know, this space is going to grow, it’s going to change. And these are the areas that would look the best to change, and that is being practical if we’re already used to working from home, why wouldn’t you want to help somebody in their own home? Why wouldn’t you focus on doing door to door calls and taking care of people, finding ways that you can build mental health that doesn’t affect an employer because they’re taking care of them, not home. And you’re doing things that are non-intrusive to the rest of the environment that they’re in and seeing if there is a way to build on that. I think that’s very well share.

Rishad: Yeah, I think, you know, it’s exciting. I think I’m really looking forward to what’s happening in health care and the advancements on the horizon. And I think founders, you know, know that it’s a long road, know that you need to understand the different processes. And it’s not just I’m going to fix this one pain point because we have this a lot of downstream effects in health care and there’s a lot of players the scene, but it’s exciting and I think it’s been investments have been down recently, but I think it will pick up for the end of the year.

Jeffery: Great. Love it. Okay. We’re going to transition now into a couple of different spots. The first one got a couple of questions and then we’re going to dive into our 62nd rant. So the question first question I have is what is the toughest lesson so far that you’ve learned as an investor?

Rishad: Do you hit is what I would say for that, which is when the more time you invest in a startup in a founder, the more time you invest in researching them. Doing doing is the more you want to invest in them to have a structured process for diligence. And if you see red flags that you’ve identified that you are, you are saying, I want to invest if this happens and follow that, you know, in a game of finding exceptionality, striving for commonalities may be an exercise in futility to an extent, but you could still find patterns that you can hang your hat on.

Jeffery: Perfect. Is there a case study or a story that comes to mind that you can share to the audience on what you believe it takes to be an or to be a startup founder or a company that you’ve been working with and what they’ve gone through to kind of show you what that real environment is like and the outcome that can occur, good or bad.

Rishad: Yeah. you know, I’ll try it out. Steve Chala from So Pet Health, He’s a physician MBA, came out of retirement to start his startup. So you can already know there’s a lot of passion behind that. He launched his his brother for a medical misdiagnosis and that’s what drives him. He’s a formidable founder. When you ask him for something or you ask him a question, you have the answer right away. When he tells you this is what’s happening, is what’s going to happen. It always happens, including big contracts he’s signing. And they recently signed a fairly big one, which I think they’ve announced last month. So, you know, he is someone who doesn’t have to do his startup. He is post financial freedom. He’s in retirement. He is someone you can say he is motivated. He will move the earth to do this. And I think sometimes you need that, especially in healthcare. But he also has the humility to recognize that market conditions, to say, you know, software and help is out the gate and things are changing fast. And he needs to iterate fast to kind of keep on top of things. You know, there’s one thing to say about manifesting things or saying this is what I’m going to do, but you still have to do the work, you still have to iterate, you still have to recognize his, you know, where things are going wrong. Keep a close eye on your startup, keep a close eye on your people. He has, I believe, 12 engineers and most of them are equity based. They think he’s a he’s running a very lean machine and he is doing an amazing job.

Jeffery: I love it. Great story. Okay, we’re going to dive into the 62nd rant. So when I start my clock, you have 60 seconds to rant about anything that you are passionate about that you feel the world needs to hear. And then I’ll throw a rebuttal or at least a comment. Hopefully I can and then you’ll close it off from there. Ready to roll? Yeah. Yeah. All right, you’re on.

Rishad: I’ll comment on two things. The first thing is design your life with purpose. There are two ways to design your work life. One way is you work 40 hour weeks, weekends and evenings off, and you have a more balanced life. The second way is you do sprints, so you work for six months, you work for a year and you work 100 hour weeks. You completely devote yourself to work and then you take six months off. I think it’s important to introspect, to reflect is start every day with 10 minutes, 20 minutes of meditation, and we don’t get this enough from so many. US wake up by our phone and then the first thing we do is check our email. I would encourage you to not do that, to just sit with your thoughts. The inability just to sit in silence is where a lot of your suffering comes from. I would say, and this is as a known quote, a known thing in Buddhism as well, to an extent. So being able to just recognize who you are and look at yourself objectively as is so critical. And if everyone did that, I think that would be that would be amazing. The second thing I would say is if physicians and clinicians were involved in innovation in health care, 30 years from now, healthcare would be much better. And this is the why behind health tech investors is having physicians, clinicians, nurses, pharmacists and patients involved in developing the new technologies. The new EMR, the new telehealth systems is critical. I think you cannot if you we’re doing a disservice if we don’t do that because health care will be much worse off, both in terms of equity, of access and quality. The best way to be involved is to start a company or two funded and funding a company is easier. Part of that is in some ways taking the easier path. I think innovation drives economies and if we want Canada, USA or wherever you are to be at the forefront in the future, you have to focus on the startup ecosystem. This is my gripe with Canada especially Canadian health care. There is no ecosystem for Canadian startups, so you hear a lot about all these accelerators, and biotech is one that’s doing well because the company need to show revenue. It doesn’t need to commercialize before an exit. But everything else, if you need to commercialize, there is no commercial market. The hospitals from my conversations here have no idea what a startup is. They’re looking for integration with Amazon, which, you know, there’s no startup without a federal mandate that has a budget for that. And so, you know, the government here, if it values innovation, it needs to show it right. Mandate, interoperability, mandate hospitals, you know, 10% of your revenue must go to startups. You must have a startup pilot program. I think we have the worst of both worlds where we’re a government focused system with all the administrative law that goes along with that. But also we it’s too is too segregated. It’s not structured have a top down system. You don’t need five middle managers all getting funding and and ministry of health care allocate funding directly to frontline workers. And you know, half half of our funding is going to waste. And it doesn’t need to reign as a community that I came across is looking physicians that are trying to incentivize by a telemedicine system. Why do I want a telemedicine system? You know, I talk to physicians and then what we want, and especially with the cost, think maybe a recruitment incentive would go further, sort of maybe a model for that. So I think I’ll pass there.

Jeffery: Well, was well shared. I’m going to say we we broke the 62nd barrier, but that was okay. It was well worth it. My my quick rebuttal would be I remember this is about 15 years ago. I was Arrington Huffington or Huffington narrative. The lady was doing a talk and she said to everybody, You need to take time and break and don’t work so hard. Stop working at 4:00 and just breathe. Take a moment.

Rishad: I agree with that. I think there’s moments in your life where you can work that for him.

Jeffery: And that was that was that’s my rebuttal to this, is that there is this mindset when you’re successful that you need to stop, breathe and take your time and don’t work so hard and shut down the system. And I think that was the point she was trying to make. And everybody in the room kind of was like, Wait a second, yeah, you just sold your company for a half billion dollars. So now you can say that. But how much time did you put into actually making this a success? And to your earlier point, focus, focus, focus. So how do you really take that moment? And I think you gave one point, this is meditation taking 5 minutes or 10 minutes in the morning to reflect. And I think we need to figure out is how does that work? And then my last rebuttal to the clinicians and imams, 100%. There needs to be a system top down, pushes businesses, especially government run businesses, to take a time and allocate startup funding or startup test product test data, test information that is governed by the people that have been through the that are retired, bring them back and allow them to manage some form of startup integration so that it doesn’t take away from the people that are working in this space today because they’re already overburdened and overworked and there’s got to be a balance. So how do you do that? And I don’t know if that’s a solution, but those are my two rebuttals.

Rishad: Yeah, perfect. So I think the first one, 10 minutes, five, 2 minutes, you know, it doesn’t have to be 10 minutes. Wake up 2 minutes and just just sit there. Lay in bed because that doesn’t count. You have to sit here, stand and just just don’t do anything for 2 minutes and two. Everyone has 2 minutes in the morning. I mean, realistically, everyone has 10 minutes really. But start with 2 minutes and just do that every morning. Sam Harris has his meditation app, which I like it. You can use that as well. The second, the only thing I would say is we are seeing this to an extent with this rise of, you know, there’s an Exeter every quarter now there’s an incubator in every corner have success defined as quality, not quantity, because even though repetition quantity begets quality, it’s not always true to the quality of the startups matters and, you know, have success or them being like, you need one unicorn in the next five years and have shorter term goals that lead to that. Because what I’m seeing, especially in my area, which is the Kitchener-Waterloo area, there’s a lot of quantity, but there’s not much quality that’s changing slowly. But you can see where the VC money goes and Canadian money goes goes to American startups, except biotech, because you don’t need to commercialize for biotech exits.

Jeffery: Great. All right. We’re almost there. We’re going to whip through some business questions and then we’ll jump into the personal. So rapid fire you, yes or no, which one you like best coming from you as the investor? So first question, founder or co-founder.

Rishad: Founder.

Jeffery: Unicorn or a four year ten x exit.

Rishad: Unicorn.

Jeffery: Tech or CPG

Rishad: tech

Jeffery: Nfts or web 3.0.

Rishad: Neither yet.

Jeffery: A.I. or blockchain.

Rishad: A.I.

Jeffery: A first time founder or second third time founder.

Rishad: Second third time founder.

Jeffery: First money in or series A.

Rishad: First Money in.

Jeffery: Angel or VC.

Rishad: Angel.

Jeffery: Board seat or observer.

Rishad: Observer.

Jeffery: Save for convertible note.

Rishad: Safe.

Jeffery: Lead or Follow.

Rishad: Follow

Jeffery: Number of companies invest per year

Rishad:

Rishad: 5

Jeffery: Verticals or focus.

Rishad: Focus.

Jeffery: Sorry, which verticals do you want to focus on? I’m guessing you’re to say medtech or biotech, but some are health tech, which are the areas that you tend to invest in.

Rishad: Yeah, and digital health, medical device and biotech, focusing on personalized medicine, epigenetics.

Jeffery: Tech, two qualities for a startup to stand out.

Rishad: Speed to innovation, humility and commitment to the idea a strong founder problem fit Love it.

Jeffery: What is the piece of advice you give founders nine out of ten times.

Rishad: Higher for loyalty and commitment?

Jeffery: Do you have a philosophy or rules that you stand behind?

Rishad: I think rules are meant to be broken, and I think the universe is malleable and ever changing. So having strict criteria often works against you. Basic things like honesty and transparency, radical honesty with kindness. I think the second line on my site is we do not value pedigree or legacy. It’s not about what you’ve done, it’s about what you’re going to do. So if you have lived a very accomplished life, that’s great. I’m very happy for you. But it’s more about, you know, what are you going to do in the future?

Jeffery: Love it. Who is your hero, mentor and why?

Rishad: There’s another thing I don’t believe in is having heroes and mentors, because I think we’re all fallible. There are lessons we can learn from everyone. I love the book Meditations by Marcus Aurelius and Victor Frankl’s Man’s Search for Meaning the Psychiatrist in the Concentration camp. And he talks about his experiences there. So I’ll name those two books, but I think it’s from my personality. It doesn’t work to have mentors or heroes there.

Jeffery: If you can change one thing about venture, what would it be?

Rishad: A longer time horizon. A 20 year friend?

Jeffery: What line do you find you share to investors over and over?

Rishad: Have a structured diligence process and apply intuition after. Never invest against your intuition, but your initial intuition is often wrong without the structure. This is born from data Kahneman’s framework of decision making. I was thinking and slow.

Jeffery: I like it. Is there any other podcast or anything else that you would reference for people to check out?

Rishad: A 20 minute VC by Harry Stebbings I think that that’s a great one. I have a podcast, we talk about health care and life and decision making, but I say 21 this is probably my favorite VC podcast. And then the usual standards. I listen to Joe Rogan, Lex Friedman, Chris Williamson is interesting as well. It’s more about life in general and meaning and purpose, and I think it’s worthwhile taking time to think about meaning and purpose because oftentimes if you don’t, you find yourself at 37 is, as I’m 37, thinking about these things where you haven’t and you’re just kind of been on a treadmill. And then when you think about working hard, it’s easy to get addicted to that and to just keep working insane hours and getting these achievements. But I think it’s important to stop once in a while, if you can, as a startup founder, you often cannot where that ten minute meditation, maybe it should be 30 minutes or I started thunder in the morning and wake up 30 minutes earlier. You know, as long as you’re getting your 7 hours of sleep.

Jeffery: All right, personal questions. Most famous person that pops in your mind, Naval Ravikant.

Rishad: I don’t know if he’s famous globally, but he’s a founder of AngelList. And I read his almanac and I really like what he says about building specific knowledge. And he has this tweetstorm about how to get rich without getting lucky. And I think there’s that there’s a lot of value in that.

Jeffery: It’s pretty famous. I think the first brand that pops in your mind.

Rishad: Nike, Just because I have full dogs for my biography, shoot, I have to read.

Jeffery: A book or movie.

Rishad: Book.

Jeffery: Superman or Batman,

Rishad: Batman,

Jeffery: Fortune Cookie or birthday cake.

Rishad: Birthday cake.

Jeffery: 5 minutes with Bezos or Oprah,

Rishad: Bezos

Jeffery: Mountain or Beech.

Rishad:Mountain.

Jeffery: Bike or run.

Rishad: Bike.

Jeffery: Big Mac or Chicken McNuggets,

Rishad: Big Mac

Jeffery: Trophy. or money.

Rishad: Money.

Jeffery: Beer, wine.

Rishad: Wine.

Jeffery: TED Talk or book Reading?

Rishad: Book Reading

Jeffery: Tik Tok or Instagram.

Rishad: Instagram.

Jeffery: Facebook or LinkedIn.

Rishad: LinkedIn.

Jeffery: Favorite movie and what character would you play?

Rishad: You know, I just saw Oppenheimer and I absolutely loved the movie, and I would love to be the general. I think that was a cool.

Jeffery: I’m going to have to see it. I haven’t seen that one yet. You listed a few books and I’m going to have to get you to text me all your books because I love reading and you’ve got a lot of books I haven’t read. So favorite book.

Rishad: The One Man Search for Meaning by Fire, because it helped me a lot. And I was at a point in my life and I still am to an extent where I was looking for meaning and purpose. And it really puts things into perspective when you’re hearing from someone who was in the concentration camp in August. The book I’m reading right now is called Starwood. Why by Simon Sinek, and I love it as well, and I think it clearly outlines how to make decisions when you’re building a startup or a company. Yeah, and then the classics, you know Good to Great by Jim cause I think it’s an amazing book. 0 to 1. Peter to you. I love Ben Horowitz’s book, Hard Thing About Hard Things. Venture deals is a better, harder to read, but I think it’s well worth it, especially if you’re going to be an investor. Secret of Sandals Road, Persuasion and Influence by Robert C Lini. If you’re selling anything, you have to read those. They’re very difficult to read. They’re very difficult books to get through. But I think you can understand the concepts. Danny Kahneman Thinking fast and slow Homo sapiens has kind of been sticking around in my head to read that by Yuval for hours. Yeah, I’ll pause there. But you know, I love reading so tons of books.

Jeffery: Off the gate to share me your list. That would be awesome. Our favorite sports team.

Rishad: I used to watch cricket, but I’ve been getting into basketball and I would say Toronto Raptors.

Jeffery: But what is the meaning of success to you?

Rishad: The meaning of success to me is continuous growth, but I don’t think it’s a meaning of success, and I don’t think it should be the meaning of success to me. I think the meaning of success should be that I have enough.

Jeffery: What is your superpower?

Rishad: Persistence. Grit. Not not recognizing the rules that exist in this world. When I want to do something within the framework of laws not doing anything illegal. But if if someone says, you know, this won’t work or you can’t do this, then game on.

Jeffery: I love it challenging the status quo, but I feel there’s a lot of observation skills in there, really. So I think you’re analytical, are on Supercharged as well. So I think it really kind of helps put that all together, which obviously allows you to share a lot of great, great insights. So which is brilliant.

Rishad: And so I want to help the world. So I think the I don’t know if I have to say that, but, you know, I don’t want to be an evil dictator, but I do want to challenge the status quo. And I think continuous growth is important.

Jeffery: I love it. Well, you’re doing a fantastic job and I want to say thank you very much so much for joining us today and going through and sharing all of this. Richard, it was awesome. Great insight. I took a lot of notes and the way we like to and our podcast is we want to give you the last word. So anything that you want to share to the investor community or startup community, we turn it over to you and please share how people can get in touch with you. And again, thank you very much for joining us.

Rishad: Thank you, Jeffrey. This was a lot of fun. I would just reiterate, this is an amazing time to be an investor. If you already have a startup that’s struggling, you know, at times it’s okay to say, I don’t need to raise another round. If you can go lean and extend your runway, it’s a good time. Venture debt is not the worst thing if you have to do it, but at times you have to recognize maybe what you are chasing doesn’t exist. And this startup, maybe the product or the Fed won’t happen. So radical honesty with kindness, with others, but also with yourself is important. If you want to find me this money on LinkedIn and health tech investors are the two best places.

Jeffery: I love it. You’re the best. Thank you very much for sharing and have an awesome day.

Rishad: Thanks, Jeffrey.

Jeffery: So what a great background on Rishad. Just I love how his structure of life has been like a startup and how he just work through trial and error to get where he wanted to be. And then continue to do that with startup investing and even with his own startup and the incredible amount of learning and risk that was associated with all of that. And I loved where he talked about cold calling and, you know, being able to build a cultural fit and, you know, all of the things that he was doing and keeping busy for the family to build a family together at the same time while trying to figure out where he wanted to be in the things he was doing. Very observant. And I love the fact that he really built down on being the loyalty side of building your company and how much that makes a big difference early on when you are growing your company. Amazing thing. Books that he was able to bring up and you’ll see the, you know how much reading makes a difference to perspective or how you build something. So please always keep that in mind that everything you read brings one or two things that you may not have thought of, but you’ll always remember, because it helps build context into as you move forward. How important learning and reading and speaking about it to others is really going to be a good understanding of figuring out pain points. How process can change and remembering you’re diving into something. You got to make people money or they don’t have the same interest. They don’t want to. Just everybody can just do things to do well or be good. That can be an outcome. But the number one thing is that they have to generate revenue if they’re going to break their process and change things. So thank you for joining us today. If you’ve enjoyed this conversation, please feel do feel free to share with your friends. Subscribe to our YouTube channel and or please follow us on Spotify Google and or Apple. Feel free to share an audio clip or video clip around our show and we may include it in one of our future podcasts. You can find us on all social platforms, including LinkedIn as supporters Fund your support and comments are truly appreciated. Please visit us at SUPPOERTERSFUND.COM or startup events at OPENPEOPLENETWORK.COM. Thank you and have a fantastic day.